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  1. #41  
    PORCUS MAXIMUS Rockntractor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    Not exactly. Marx's analysis of capitalism is extremely logical and starts with what we see all around us. A Christian Scientist already has an answer in mind.

    Granted, in this day and age, well over a hundred years after Marx's work, people can sort of assume that the answer is going to be anti-capitalist, but that's not where Marx starts.

    Yes there are some people who just want to rage against the machine and use Marx as justification, but that's not what Marx does. Marx's analysis doesn't start with "Capitalism is bad" or "Capitalism is the problem", although it is fair to argue that his analysis ends there.

    The real question is why. For a Christian Scientist, the answer is pure faith, that framework is supposed to be based on faith, but that's not how Marxist critique of capitalism goes. It starts with commodities, and slowly builds up to demonstrate how the capitalist mode of production has internal contradictions at the very core (in the workplace) which then extend outward throughout the rest of society.

    You may run into stupid shaggy haired teenagers who claim to know Marx (because they read a few excerpts in high school) who really don't know what they are talking about, who only want to blame the system, but you shouldn't take that as representative of Marxism itself.

    Capitalism has done great things, but it is also the source of many problems.

    Really, this isn't a question of whether or not we should replace capitalism with something else, the real problem is that capitalism as a system is unsustainable. Capitalism digs it's own grave (as all systems prior also have), but it has the unique ability to continuously revolutionize itself without changing the original parameters. This means that over time, capitalism just becomes leaner and meaner, but the root antagonisms still persist.

    Most pro-capitalists today will admit that today's version of American Capitalism (aptly called Corporatism) is not "true capitalism". The problem though isn't that some external force came in and corrupted capitalism, but that the internal contradictions within it forced it to change over time. There is no going back to a time when capitalism was "correct", because all of the social conditions that produced capitalism originally have changed.

    Most pro-capitalists today are against so-called "Crony Capitalism", but again, you can't simply remove the excesses and hope to be in a so called state of "Correct Capitalism". It cannot happen.

    Most Pro-Capitalists today agree with most anti-capitalists that American Capitalism is changing into something very different, but pro-capitalists blame this change on some "x-factor" corrupting the system (be it anti-capitalist policies, immigrants, corruption, the marriage between state and wall street, ect.), while Marxists see it as inevitable because of the system itself.

    The question today, I think, is not whether Capitalism "should" be replaced, because it already has been, it is not Corporatism - under the guise of "American Capitalism". The next question also isn't whether or not American Capitalism "should" be changed, because that's going to happen whether we like it or not, the question is what is it changing into.

    My very real fear is that we are going to find ourselves in a period of State Capitalism, something similar to what is happening in Singapore or Hong Kong, where the markets are liberalized but the government becomes less democratic. In singapore they understand that the so-called "free market" functions best with a non-democratic political system, because they can make quick financial decisions to stabalize the economy without getting bogged down in political fights. Also, because the state represents the corporations, they can effectively pass laws that are "good for business", even if they hurt the working people.

    Capitalism will evolve to try to make up for it's own problems, but if the people do not recognize the source of the problems, they will sit back while their freedoms are stripped for the sake of the economy. It has already begun. The bank bailouts are a perfect example.
    You should get together with tetrispro and come up with a Jehovah's witness commie combo! They rewrote the bible and could probably work their magic on the constitution too!
    The difference between pigs and people is that when they tell you you're cured it isn't a good thing.
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  2. #42  
    Our widdle friend. Wei Wu Wei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockntractor View Post
    You should get together with tetrispro and come up with a Jehovah's witness commie combo! They rewrote the bible and could probably work their magic on the constitution too!
    That's not a bad idea. Going door to door and spreading awareness might be what this country needs.

    Like most people I've always been annoyed by Jehovahs witness or mormons who come to my door, but at the same time I've always admired their dedication to what they believe in. Twice I've let these people into my home and they were extremely kind, polite, and respectful and we had long friendly conversations. :)
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Smith - Wealth of Nations
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
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  3. #43  
    PORCUS MAXIMUS Rockntractor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    That's not a bad idea. Going door to door and spreading awareness might be what this country needs.

    Like most people I've always been annoyed by Jehovahs witness or mormons who come to my door, but at the same time I've always admired their dedication to what they believe in. Twice I've let these people into my home and they were extremely kind, polite, and respectful and we had long friendly conversations. :)
    I used to invite them in, but after a few sessions with lexicons and actual Greek texts they quit coming in, but they still come by occasional to say hi and are always welcome.
    The difference between pigs and people is that when they tell you you're cured it isn't a good thing.
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  4. #44  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    That's not a bad idea. Going door to door and spreading awareness might be what this country needs.

    Like most people I've always been annoyed by Jehovahs witness or mormons who come to my door, but at the same time I've always admired their dedication to what they believe in. Twice I've let these people into my home and they were extremely kind, polite, and respectful and we had long friendly conversations. :)
    Yeah. Go to people's houses and say this: "Hi, we're spreading awareness that we believe that you should work as hard as you can but that the government should come in and take 75% of you earned and spread that around to people who did squat to earn it. Isn't that great?"

    You do that and let me know what happens. Never mind. One of 2 things will happen. They will either laugh their asses off or physically throw you off of their property.
    The Obama Administration: Deny. Deflect. Blame.
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  5. #45  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madisonian View Post
    The problem is that you keep recommending some non-existent political socio-economic system that bears the same name.
    The concerns are valid and not many will deny some or all what you claim.
    But tell me, what nation of over 300,000,000 or even 200,000,000 do you claim as better?
    You say we should abandon what we have, flawed as it may be in theory or in practice, to accept what?
    Russia? China? India, Indonesia?

    Look up the top 10 and tell me where you would rather be right now?
    Greater Germany, though that obviously isn't one state.
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