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  1. #21  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hampshirebrit View Post
    Good point, and I should and indeed meant to, include the point that Islam, above all, seems presently to be particularly fond of the concept of blasphemy, of all the Abrahamic monotheistic religions.

    Certainly, where one used to hear about adherents of the first two of these bringing blasphemy charges (in my own lifetime, even), nowadays it is almost always from "holy" Islam that such charges seem to originate.
    I don't recall any Jews being punished for blasphemy in my lifetime, and the three branches have different definitions, with the Orthodox being the most conventional in terms of what is considered blasphemy. Among Conservative Jews, blasphemy is wearing white after labor day and among Reform Jews, it's voting Republican.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Night Owl View Post
    Wait a second. Are you suggesting that the Islamic penalty for blasphemy is barbaric only when Muslims apply it to non-Muslims?
    No, I'm saying that when they apply it to non-Muslims, that it is a tool of persecution and conquest. When it is done to other Muslims, it is a means of stifling dissent and maintaining control. I don't approve of either, but I am more concerned with the expansion of Islam and the militant globalized jihad that directly threatens us than I am about the aesthetics of religious orthodoxy.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Night Owl View Post
    Well, all the Abrahamic faiths are basically imperialistic ventures built on occultism so let's not single out any one faith.
    Got it. Christianity, which hasn't waged a religious war in centuries, and Judaism, which hasn't been a prosletyzing religion since the destruction of Solomon's Temple, are no better than Islam, which imposes Sharia on believer and non-believer alike, and treats non-believers as scum, to be enslaved, subjugated or murdered. More importantly, major swathes of Christianity and Judaism haven't declared war on the west. Islam has. Do you, perhaps, see that one faith that might be just a tad more inclined to violence ought to be singled out for it? Regardless, I'll be dismissing you as a crank now. Try not to take it personally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gingersnap View Post
    I'm pretty sure a deity-evaluation wasn't on my mind.
    There are fundamental differences between Islam and the other Abrahamic religions. Islam assumes a perpetual state of war with the non-Islamic world, and forbids accomodation or peaceful coexistence.
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  2. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    Oh, I don't know... it seems like human rights organizations are doing what they can for this lady, though I don't know what that actually entails, or how much its likely to help.

    Is the "tolerance-world" as you call it, really ignoring this and/or does it consistently ignore other cases like it? I don't know, I've seen plenty of the same people who fight for gay rights also decry religiously based human rights abuses.
    Well, that makes one person on this board.

    I have seen ZERO of the "enlightened liberal" groups speak out. I have seen them point out imagined Christian abuses though.
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  3. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Night Owl View Post
    So, help me understand the basis for the outrage being expressed here. Does the Islamic penalty for blasphemy upset you because you consider it barbaric or because you believe it serves the wrong deity?
    Both. Standing by for the typical anti-Christian bashing routine. You are way too transparent so why don't you get it out of your system already?
    Last edited by AmPat; 11-13-2010 at 01:41 PM.
    Education without values, as useful as it is, seems rather to make man a more clever devil.
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    Do not ever say that the desire to "do good" by force is a good motive. Neither power-lust nor stupidity are good motives. (Are you listening Barry)?:mad:
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  4. #24  
    Senior Member The Night Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Got it. Christianity, which hasn't waged a religious war in centuries, and Judaism, which hasn't been a prosletyzing religion since the destruction of Solomon's Temple, are no better than Islam, which imposes Sharia on believer and non-believer alike, and treats non-believers as scum, to be enslaved, subjugated or murdered. More importantly, major swathes of Christianity and Judaism haven't declared war on the west. Islam has. Do you, perhaps, see that one faith that might be just a tad more inclined to violence ought to be singled out for it? Regardless, I'll be dismissing you as a crank now. Try not to take it personally.
    If Christians are behaving better than Muslims (I agree they are), it's only because they're not following most of the prescriptions in their holy book, which is as totalitarian as the Muslim holy book.

    The problem with Islam isn't that the faith is being perverted. It's that the faith is being followed to the letter.
    Last edited by The Night Owl; 11-14-2010 at 12:06 PM.
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  5. #25  
    Senior Member The Night Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gingersnap View Post
    I'm pretty sure a deity-evaluation wasn't on my mind.
    I'm not asking for an evaluation of deities. I'm asking for an evaluation of this precept which requires the killing of blasphemers. Is the precept itself barbaric in all cases or is it barbaric only in regard to Islam?
    Last edited by The Night Owl; 11-14-2010 at 12:05 PM.
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  6. #26  
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    Most Christians follow the New Testament (Bible 2.0) a lot closer than the Old Testament (Bible 1.0), which doesn't have alot of killin' going on comparatively. Just saying. It seems like a false comparison-- stepping over Islam to try to smack Christianity.

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  7. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Night Owl View Post
    If Christians are behaving better than Muslims (I agree they are), it's only because they're not following the prescriptions in their holy book, which is as totalitarian as the Muslim holy book.

    The problem with Islam isn't that the faith is being perverted. It's that the faith is being followed to the letter.
    Let's make this really simple. They plan on killing this woman. A culture-probe is not needed. A discussion of how Muslim's read their book vs. how Christians read their book is not needed.

    It's a very sad reality that we can't/won't prevent the public murder of an innocent person by a government that is supposedly on our side.
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  8. #28  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Night Owl View Post
    I'm not asking for an evaluation of deities. I'm asking for an evaluation of this precept which requires the killing of blasphemers. Is the precept itself barbaric in all cases or is it barbaric only in regard to Islam?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Night Owl View Post
    If Christians are behaving better than Muslims (I agree they are), it's only because they're not following most of the prescriptions in their holy book, which is as totalitarian as the Muslim holy book.

    The problem with Islam isn't that the faith is being perverted. It's that the faith is being followed to the letter.
    The latter is true. The former is not.

    Bill Warner provides an excellent comparison of the Bible, the Torah and the Qur'an (which, combined with the Hadiths and the Sunna, comprise the totality of Islamic texts), literally counting the references to, and incitements to, violence in each. His article follows:

    is the doctrine of Islam more violent than the Koran? There is only one way to prove or disprove the comparison, and that is to measure the differences in violence in the Koran and the Bible.


    The first item is to define violence. The only violence that matters to someone outside of Islam, Christianity, or Judaism is what they do to the "other," or political violence. Cain killing Abel is not political violence. Political violence is not killing a lamb for a meal or making an animal sacrifice. Note that regardless of whether a vegan or a PETA member considers both of these actions violent, neither constitutes violence against vegans or PETA members.

    The next item is to compare the doctrines both quantitatively and qualitatively. The political violence of the Koran is called "fighting in Allah's cause," or jihad.

    We must do more than measure the jihad in the Koran. Islam has three sacred texts: Koran, Sira, and Hadith, or the Islamic Trilogy. The Sira is Mohammed's biography. The Hadith are his traditions -- what he did and said. Sira and Hadith form the Sunna, the perfect pattern of all Islamic behavior.

    The Koran is the smallest of the three books, also called the Trilogy. It is only 16% of the Trilogy text[1]. This means that the Sunna is 84% of the word content of Islam's sacred texts. This statistic alone has large implications. Most of the Islamic doctrine is about Mohammed, not Allah. The Koran says 91 different times that Mohammed's is the perfect pattern of life. It is much more important to know Mohammed than the Koran. This is very good news. It is easy to understand a biography about a man. To know Islam, know Mohammed.

    It turns out that jihad occurs in large proportion in all three texts. Here is a chart about the results:


    It is very significant that the Sira devotes 67% of its text to jihad. Mohammed averaged an event of violence every six weeks for the last nine years of his life. Jihad was what made Mohammed successful. Here is a chart of the growth of Islam.
    (Link only, as the chart is ginormous)

    Basically, when Mohammed was a preacher of religion, Islam grew at the rate of ten new Muslims per year. But when he turned to jihad, Islam grew at an average rate of ten thousand per year. All the details of how to wage jihad are recorded in great detail. The Koran gives the great vision of jihad -- world conquest by the political process. The Sira is a strategic manual, and the Hadith is a tactical manual, of jihad.

    Now let's go to the Hebrew Bible. When we count all the political violence, we find that 5.6% of the text is devoted to it. There is no admonition towards political violence in the New Testament.

    When we count the magnitude of words devoted to political violence, we have 327,547 words in the Trilogy[2] and 34,039 words in the Hebrew Bible[3]. The Trilogy has 9.6 times as much wordage devoted to political violence as the Hebrew Bible.

    The real problem goes far beyond the quantitative measurement of ten times as much violent material; there is also the qualitative measurement. The political violence of the Koran is eternal and universal. The political violence of the Bible was for that particular historical time and place. This is the vast difference between Islam and other ideologies. The violence remains a constant threat to all non-Islamic cultures, now and into the future. Islam is not analogous to Christianity and Judaism in any practical way. Beyond the one-god doctrine, Islam is unique unto itself.

    Another measurement of the difference between the violence found in the Judeo/Christian texts and that of Islam is found in the use of fear of violence against artists, critics, and intellectuals. What artist, critic, or intellectual ever feels a twinge of fear if condemning anything Christian or Jewish? However, look at the examples of the violent political threats against and/or murders of Salman Rushdie, Theo van Gogh, Pim Fortune, Kurt Westergaard of the Danish Mohammed cartoons, and many others. What artist, critic, or intellectual has not had a twinge of fear about Islam when it comes to free expression? The political difference in the responses to the two different doctrines is enormous. The political fruits from the two trees are as different as night and day.


    It is time for so-called intellectuals to get down to the basics of judging Islam by its actual doctrine, not making lame analogies that are sophomoric assertions. Fact-based reasoning should replace fantasies that are based upon political correctness and multiculturalism.

    - Bill Warner, Director of the Center for the Study of Political Islam

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3rd-try View Post
    Let's make this really simple. They plan on killing this woman. A culture-probe is not needed. A discussion of how Muslim's read their book vs. how Christians read their book is not needed.

    It's a very sad reality that we can't/won't prevent the public murder of an innocent person by a government that is supposedly on our side.
    We don't know that we can't. They are sensitive to pressure, and we can bring it to bear. The problem is that this case has a very high profile, both because of the extreme penalty, but because we actually do get news reports out of Pakistan, which has a relatively free press. The systematic persecution of non-Muslims in Islamic countries that have only state-run media gets much less coverage unless people are willing to risk their lives to expose it. Iran has stoned thousands of women to death, and killed Christians and Jews within the country, since the Khomeini revolution. Sudan's genocide in the Christian/Animist south, which preceded their Darfur genocide, is ongoing, but gets little coverage. Saudi Arabia continues to behead those who run afoul of its laws, the foreigners far outnumber Saudis among those beheaded. While in Indonesia, Obama found time to criticise Israel for building apartments in its capital, but didn't muster any outrage over recently passed Indonesian laws that further criminalize homosexuality (I guess the military isn't the only part of the government that can play Don't Ask, Don't Tell).

    This is a horrible act, done in accordance with a horrific legal code in service to corrupt, tribal regimes that behave like this wherever they can get away with it.
    Last edited by Odysseus; 11-14-2010 at 02:24 PM.
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  9. #29  
    Senior Member hampshirebrit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    We don't know that we can't. They are sensitive to pressure, and we can bring it to bear.
    I think you are right. It turns out that Pakistan has yet to prosecute a blasphemy case to its full conclusion. No one, to date, has been executed for blasphemy (that we know of) in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. If it happens now, it will be a first.

    The problem, really, is representative of the disconnect between the government and the population of Pakistan.

    I guarantee that the bulk of this unfortunate woman's neighbours in rural Pakistan are baying for the sentence to be carried out in full ... her neighbours brought these charges, after all.

    The question now really is which opinion will the government cede to first, ours or theirs.
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  10. #30  
    Senior Member The Night Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus quoting Bill Warner View Post
    Is the doctrine of Islam more violent than the Koran? There is only one way to prove or disprove the comparison, and that is to measure the differences in violence in the Koran and the Bible.

    The first item is to define violence. The only violence that matters to someone outside of Islam, Christianity, or Judaism is what they do to the "other," or political violence. Cain killing Abel is not political violence. Political violence is not killing a lamb for a meal or making an animal sacrifice. Note that regardless of whether a vegan or a PETA member considers both of these actions violent, neither constitutes violence against vegans or PETA members.
    Huh? I'm sorry but I don't accept this premise that the only violence that matters to someone outside of Islam, Christianity, or Judaism is political violence. I mean, what does that even mean?

    Words devoted to political violence? What does that mean? If a call to violence in the Koran contains more words than a call to violence in the Bible, we must conclude that the Koran is more violent? That doesn't make much sense.

    This material you've presented is very questionable. Without knowing exactly what is being counted or not counted as political violence (whatever that means), we have no way of assessing the methodology used in the comparison.

    The New Testament is less violent than the Old Testament but there is no rebuke of Old Testament cruelty in the New Testament. Why would there be? If the New Testament is to be believed then Jesus was the incarnation of the violent God of the Old Testament.

    Anyway, I'm still confused about your position on punishing blasphemy. Can we say that killing people for blasphemy is barbaric in all cases?
    Last edited by The Night Owl; 11-15-2010 at 11:49 AM.
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