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  1. #1 Oh, these are always hilarious! 
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    BrentWil (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:21 PM
    Original message
    What is the minimum standard of living a society should accept for its poorest?


    Simple question, very complex answers. Thought this is a very basic discussion that one should spend some time thinking about every so often.
    Oh, these are always good for a riot. It was one of these types of threads a few years ago in which one of the DUmmies declared that no one should be allowed to have more than 300 square feet of living space. LOL!


    These are always great because they start with "food, housing, and health care" and they inevitably devolve into there being an absolute necessity for a late-model car, a college education, high-speed internet access, a new computer each year, and cable television (to watch C-SPAN and MSNBC, of course), as well as at least three weeks per year of paid vacation, with travel to exotic destinations paid for (not in first class, though; that would be entirely too bourgeois).



    HEyHEY (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:24 PM
    Response to Original message
    3. Shelter, food, healthcare, education n/t
    Cardboard box, can of Alpo, pack of Band-Aids, and a dog-eared dictionary.

    OK. Works for me.

    Oops! Looks like those were too vague. Better come up with other stuff that should be free to everyone regardless of whether or not they've earned it:

    Motown_Johnny (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:40 PM
    Response to Reply #3
    19. + water, heat (or air conditioning in extreme climates) Some other energy provisions

    such as simply having electric lights a refrigerator and a way to cook food, proper sanitation, proper clothing, some minimal creature comforts such as basic furniture


    Security should go without saying, police and fire protection as well as EMS services if needed and national defense.




    I know it seems like I am listing a lot but it is less than what we spend keeping people in prison.
    OK, so now we're at a cardboard box with a 40-watt light bulb, some sterno, a doorway to shit in along Lombard Street, Oscar de LaRenta, a chair for reading the dictionary, someone to deliver Band-Aids, and an eeeeevvvviiiiiilllll military.

    HEyHEY (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 11:19 PM
    Response to Reply #19
    30. I consider those part of shelter.
    Oh. OK. Clothing, a stove, a refrigerator, ambulances, fire engines, and policemen are now part of "shelter." Gonna put those cops up in your spare room in your cardboard box, Skippy?

    leftstreet (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:25 PM
    Response to Original message
    5. Article 1, Section 25, Universal Declaration of Human Rights

    Article 25.
    (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

    http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml
    Ah! So now we have to throw a retirement plan from the cardboard box into the mix. At some point, presumably, someone will want to take their cardboard box to Boca Raton and retire there.

    jody (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:30 PM
    Response to Reply #5
    10. Excellent answer but what if there's not enough wealth to go around? nt
    Oops! What do we do when we run out of other people's money?

    Not to worry:

    leftstreet (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:33 PM
    Response to Reply #10
    12. Go around where? We the people CREATE the wealth

    There's enough of OUR wealth in the hands of the global ruling elite to tide us all over nicely
    Oh! Good answer! We'll take it from the rich, because they are an endless source of wealth to expropriate.

    DJ13 (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:35 PM
    Response to Reply #10
    13. Theres always enough wealth, no matter the country

    Take a country like Mexico for an example, it has an abundance of wealth derived from its rich mineral deposits, but the wealthy have never developed a sense of sharing, so theres a huge disparity between the well off and extreme poverty.

    Its getting the obscenely wealthy to share thats the problem in most every country.
    Aww, man, that's even BETTER! Rather than actually stealing the money from the rich, we'll just convince them to share their money through taxation. That way we can feel much better about ourselves as we tell ourselves that by killing the rich and taking their stuff, it's their own fault because they weren't willing to share what they've earned like they were supposed to.

    demmiblue (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:27 PM
    Response to Original message
    7. Food, housing, healthcare, education, modest vacation. n/t
    TA DA! Not much. Just a couple of weeks in Tahiti and Bora Bora should do the trick. Then people can come home to their cardboard boxes and again be productive members of society.

    bobbolink (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:28 PM
    Response to Original message
    8. After the obvious necessities, FDR included recreation.

    But, then... he was a Commie.

    Seems reasonable that poor people should have access to things like recreation centers... to be able to swim, work out, take classes, etc. Even the Indian villages of New Mexico do that for their people. Why is it so unthinkable for the rest of the nation?
    And now we know why the Communists gutted churches and turned them into swimming pools.

    Luminous Animal (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:36 PM
    Response to Original message
    14. Guaranteed income for all adults.

    I'm thinking $24,000 a year indexed to real cost of living increases. For every dollar you earn, a dollar is taken away.
    BRILLIANT! We should have thought of this before! Everyone makes the same amount of money no matter how productive they are. That way, there will be tremendous incentive for everyone to innovate and hustle.

    Oh, wait....




    So, this one very quickly devolved into the Wood Postulate™:
    In any discussions amongst liberals about standards of living, wealth, or income, the discussion will eventually boil down to the advocacy of a maximum wage.



    Always good for a laugh. Ever want to watch a Leftist's head explode? Just force them to define "food," "housing/shelter," "clothing," and "transportation." They just completely freak out, or else they totally freeze up. Isn't caviar food? Shouldn't that be a "basic human right?" The Biltmore Estate is "housing," isn't it? If clothing is a "basic human right," then shouldn't everyone be given Armani suits and Prada? A Ferrari is transportation. Isn't that what's needed to satisfy the "transportation" requirement? Seems you think that the city bus isn't sufficient. Hilarious! They just completely can't deal with their envy-based policy positions when they're challenged. LOL!
    Olde-style, states' rights conservative. Ask if this concept confuses you.
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  2. #2  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Wood View Post
    Cardboard box, can of Alpo, pack of Band-Aids, and a dog-eared dictionary.
    Instead of welfare, I would be all for giving people 2 cups of rice a day and a free rent in a 1-room cinderblock communist-style apartment with no appliances except for a hotplate to cook your rice. Oh, and a public transportation pass so they can look for work. Problem with giving people money is that if they made good choices, they wouldn't be perpetually on welfare.

    Karma is going to kick my ass for saying that, but there ya go.
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  3. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by m00 View Post
    Instead of welfare, I would be all for giving people 2 cups of rice a day and a free rent in a 1-room cinderblock communist-style apartment with no appliances except for a hotplate to cook your rice. Oh, and a public transportation pass so they can look for work. Problem with giving people money is that if they made good choices, they wouldn't be perpetually on welfare.

    Karma is going to kick my ass for saying that, but there ya go.
    I'm all for that. I have absolutely no problem with helping someone out when they are in a jam, but those same people need to live a completely spartan lifestyle and sell everything they have if they are in some sort of position where they can't manage to feed, clothe, and house themselves.

    I've done it myself, so I know that anyone else can do it. I lived in a "furnished" studio apartment (one standard bed (slightly bigger than a twin; sheets aren't easy to find), one table, two chairs) in a shitty neighborhood for $135 /month and took the bus 45 minutes to work (just over minimum wage at the time; I was making $3.75/hour when minimum was $3.35) every day. No phone, no TV, no internet, no A/C (anyone who has experienced a Nashville summer knows that a lack of A/C is miserable). I survived just fine, despite a couple of weeks of 100-degree-plus temperatures. I moved in with one two-quart saucepan, two plates (they didn't match), one bowl, two forks, one serving spoon, one regular spoon for eating, one butcher knife, and one dull steak knife. I managed to save a couple of thousand dollars and buy a car after a few months, cutting my commute from 45 minutes to just about 10.


    So I simply don't buy this "can't do it" argument that the Leftists perpetually put forward. Yes, you can do it. You just have to be willing to give up some things you would otherwise like to have to get there.
    Olde-style, states' rights conservative. Ask if this concept confuses you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Wood View Post
    So I simply don't buy this "can't do it" argument that the Leftists perpetually put forward. Yes, you can do it. You just have to be willing to give up some things you would otherwise like to have to get there.
    Yep, I'm at a point right now in my life where I live a pretty cushy lifestyle all things considered. But if I lost it all, I could probably survive even if my industry disappeared overnight and my skills were rendered obsolete. Which it won't. I'm trying to imagine a set of events that would lead me to perpetual welfare, and barring some severe medical disability I honestly can't. Even if my savings were wiped out by bank failures and at the same a meteor hit the house I rent and destroyed all my stuff and the same meteor also took out my office and the company I work for had to close... and unemployment insurance was canceled... it would be extremely painful living for awhile (and I might appreciate some government rice :p), but it's not like I wouldn't be able to find *some* work. Maybe I'd have to move and live in an apartment like your former one, but I wouldn't be starving.
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    I didn't live on my own until I was 32. No lie. No, I didn't live with my parents(they moved to Florida in 1991). I went from my parents house and moved in with my then girlfriend, who ended up being my first wife. Anyhoo, after I got divorced, I got my own apartment(with a girl I was dating but it didn't last). But at that time, I was making a decent living in the bread business. It's when my now wife and I moved to Arizona with no jobs that things got interesting. But we persisted. It didn't take long for us to find work but it wasn't lucrative. During that time, I got my truck repossessed. But we were able to get a decent apartment. But to save money we pretty much subsisted on ramen noodles and tuna sandwiches. We never borrowed money from anyone. We just didn't spend what we were making. Now, we're doing great. House, 2 vehicles(even though my old beat up truck is dying), and some of the finer things in life. Now, I didn't have it as hard as some but went through some times of struggle. It makes me appreciate what we have and how blessed we really are.
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    Well I know bobbolink is still hoping for that condo in Boca (a nice one)...:D
    May the FORCE be with you!
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    All children have the right to shelter, food, medicine and education. Adults have the responsibility do what is required to obtain and maintain those things for themselves and any children they choose to bring into the world.


    I've never lived in a rural setting, only in suburban and urban ones. There is no reason for anyone to starve in a city in this nation-even the poorest big city in the nation. There are food distribution programs and soup kitchens everywhere. There are a lot of clinics that help the poor, too. The Detroit Medical Center treats a lot of poor people, including street people (junkies/alcoholics/bums). So do a lot of church-run clinics around town. They don't get reimbursed by medicaid for every patient.

    Housing and shelter can be trickier.
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  8. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Wood View Post
    These are always great because they start with "food, housing, and health care" and they inevitably devolve into there being an absolute necessity for a late-model car, a college education, high-speed internet access, a new computer each year, and cable television (to watch C-SPAN and MSNBC, of course), as well as at least three weeks per year of paid vacation, with travel to exotic destinations paid for (not in first class, though; that would be entirely too bourgeois).
    TA DA! Just like clockwork:

    catnhatnh (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:31 PM
    Response to Original message
    37. I'll add one more right....
    whether individually or shared-internet access. In this country at least, even the economically marginal NEED it.
    bobbolink (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:41 PM
    Response to Reply #37
    41. You are right. Thank you. Just like phones used to be considered a "luxury", net access is
    necessary to conduct modern life.

    But, then, so are things that reduce stress, too... very necessary for health, both physical and mental.
    Olde-style, states' rights conservative. Ask if this concept confuses you.
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  9. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Wood View Post
    Once again I feel the need to post this cartoon:
    The Obama Administration: Deny. Deflect. Blame.
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  10. #10  
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    bobbolink (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-19-11 10:28 PM
    Response to Original message
    8. After the obvious necessities, FDR included recreation.

    But, then... he was a Commie.

    Seems reasonable that poor people should have access to things like recreation centers... to be able to swim, work out, take classes, etc. Even the Indian villages of New Mexico do that for their people. Why is it so unthinkable for the rest of the nation?

    I'm am in shock. This is the first time in recent memory that Bobo The Bobo has posted on a thread and did NOT go immediately into a wild eyed rant about being homeless.
    In Memory Of My Friend 1st Sgt. Tim Millsap A Co, 70th Eng. Bn. 3rd Bde 1st AD...K.I.A. 25 April 2005

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    To Achieve Ordered Liberty You Must Have Moral Order As Well

    The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.
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