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  1. #21  
    Senior Member Apache's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    But God did say he'd bless Hagar and Ishmael.

    http://freechristimages.org/biblesto..._the_angel.htm










    And not that I think that Islam is the answer (I'm a Christian), but I've always had a real problem with this story. Sarah was this jealous, abusive woman and yet she and her son got the blessing with Hagar supposedly left out in the cold? Uh, no. God did choose to bless Sarah for reasons only he knows and understand, but he also blessed Hagar. Oh, and did I mention that Abraham only got with his slave because of Sarah's insecurity and need for a son? Just sayin. Sorry, I don't really like Sarah. I realize God chose her to bless, but I think she's just one of the most cruelest women of the bible. She's jealous, she's abusive, and she asked her husband to sleep with another woman (did the other woman even want it, and what was Abraham doing sleeping with one who wasn't his wife?).
    You're looking at this through a modern prism. Male heirs were THE most important item of a blood-line, it did't matter who gave birth as long as there was a child. Sarah made the mistake of not trusting the Lord's plans and jumped the gun...;)
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  2. #22  
    An Adversary of Linda #'s
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    But God did say he'd bless Hagar and Ishmael.

    http://freechristimages.org/biblesto..._the_angel.htm










    And not that I think that Islam is the answer (I'm a Christian), but I've always had a real problem with this story. Sarah was this jealous, abusive woman and yet she and her son got the blessing with Hagar supposedly left out in the cold? Uh, no. God did choose to bless Sarah for reasons only he knows and understand, but he also blessed Hagar. Oh, and did I mention that Abraham only got with his slave because of Sarah's insecurity and need for a son? Just sayin. Sorry, I don't really like Sarah. I realize God chose her to bless, but I think she's just one of the most cruelest women of the bible. She's jealous, she's abusive, and she asked her husband to sleep with another woman (did the other woman even want it, and what was Abraham doing sleeping with one who wasn't his wife?).
    With all of those young fertile woman floating around in Jacobs tent sex is inevitable .
    Handmaiden are the the slaves of the mistress .Bilhah and Zilpah each married Jacob after the death of Leah and Rachel.....Hagar was never married to Abraham !

    Jacob: In the Hebrew Bible, he is the son of Isaac and Rebekah, the grandson of Abraham and Sarah and of Bethuel, and the younger twin brother of Esau. He had twelve sons and several daughters, by his two wives, Leah and Rachel, and their maidservants, Bilhah and Zilpah.

    The children were Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, daughter Dinah, Joseph, and Benjamin.

    In the Book of Genesis, Bilhah,"Faltering; bashful",is Rachel's handmaid who becomes a wife of Jacob and bears him two sons, Dan and Naphtali.
    ................
    In the Book of Genesis, Zilpah,"Drooping", is Leah's handmaid who becomes a wife of Jacob and bears him two sons Gad and Asher.
    ..................
    Zilpah is given to Leah as a handmaid by Leah's father, Laban, upon Leah's marriage to Jacob.According to some commentators, Zilpah and Bilhah, the handmaids of Leah and Rachel, respectively, were actually younger daughters of Laban according to one Rabbi.
    ...................
    Last edited by megimoo; 01-23-2011 at 03:51 PM.
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  3. #23  
    PORCUS STAPHUS ADMIN Rockntractor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by megimoo View Post
    With all of those young fertile woman floating around in Jacobs tent sex is inevitable .
    Handmaiden are the the slaves of the mistress .Bilhah and Zilpah each married Jacob after the death of Leah and Rache .....Hagar was never married to Abraham !

    Jacob: In the Hebrew Bible, he is the son of Isaac and Rebekah, the grandson of Abraham and Sarah and of Bethuel, and the younger twin brother of Esau. He had twelve sons and several daughters, by his two wives, Leah and Rachel, and their maidservants, Bilhah and Zilpah.

    The children were Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, daughter Dinah, Joseph, and Benjamin.

    In the Book of Genesis, Bilhah,"Faltering; bashful",is Rachel's handmaid who becomes a wife of Jacob and bears him two sons, Dan and Naphtali.
    ................
    In the Book of Genesis, Zilpah,"Drooping", is Leah's handmaid who becomes a wife of Jacob and bears him two sons Gad and Asher.
    ..................
    Zilpah is given to Leah as a handmaid by Leah's father, Laban, upon Leah's marriage to Jacob.According to some commentators, Zilpah and Bilhah, the handmaids of Leah and Rachel, respectively, were actually younger daughters of Laban according to one Rabbi.
    ...................
    It matters not, God bestowed a blessing on all the seed of Abraham.
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  4. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apache View Post
    I was going to say read the Bible a bit more, but that's already been addressed here :)
    How so ?Do you mean Ishmael's blessing ?What I'm getting at is Ishmael has no part in GOD'S plan for Israel as a nation.Sara interrupted GOD'S plan by telling Abraham to have a child with Hagar.GOD allowed it to happen and made the best of it.
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  5. #25  
    PORCUS STAPHUS ADMIN Rockntractor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by megimoo View Post
    How so ?Do you mean Ishmael's blessing ?What I'm getting at is Ishmael has no part in GOD'S plan for Israel as a nation.Sara interrupted GOD'S plan by telling Abraham to have a child with Hagar.GOD allowed it to happen and made the best of it.
    In the story the blessing split between Ishmael and Isaac and they both followed separate paths, and it was also prophesied the two races would never get along.
    "If the Bible is true why don't we have any urns or vessels that like say expires 6/15/300 BC on the bottom?"
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  6. #26  
    PORCUS STAPHUS ADMIN Rockntractor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by megimoo View Post
    How so ?Do you mean Ishmael's blessing ?What I'm getting at is Ishmael has no part in GOD'S plan for Israel as a nation.Sara interrupted GOD'S plan by telling Abraham to have a child with Hagar.GOD allowed it to happen and made the best of it.
    God is taken by surprise by nothing and makes the best of nothing. all things take place within Gods plan and foreknowledge, he is not controlled by human created circumstance, our plans are changed by God, He remains unchanged throughout eternity.
    "If the Bible is true why don't we have any urns or vessels that like say expires 6/15/300 BC on the bottom?"
    Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
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  7. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockntractor View Post
    It matters not, God bestowed a blessing on all the seed of Abraham.
    True enough.GOD blesses us all, sinners and saved.My point is Ismael takes no part in GODS salvilvic plan .
    The lineage is through Sara and not Hagar . Isaac,Jacob/Israel and the twelve sons make up the future tribes of the Jews.
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  8. #28  
    PORCUS STAPHUS ADMIN Rockntractor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by megimoo View Post
    True enough.GOD blesses us all, sinners and saved.My point is Ismael takes no part in GODS salvilvic plan .
    The lineage is through Sara and not Hagar . Isaac,Jacob/Israel and the twelve sons make up the future tribes of the Jews.
    Yes it was a separate plan from the one for Isaac but is was also a unique blessing to Ishmael not shared by the rest of us, read the story closely.
    "If the Bible is true why don't we have any urns or vessels that like say expires 6/15/300 BC on the bottom?"
    Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
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  9. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockntractor View Post
    Yes it was a separate plan from the one for Isaac but is was also a unique blessing to Ishmael not shared by the rest of us, read the story closely.
    Ishmael was born at Mamre, when Abraham was 86, 11 years after Abraham's arrival in what would become the land of Israel (Genesis 16:3). He grew up to be a man of the desert wilderness, with a wild and hostile attitude toward people, exactly as God described him to his mother before he was born:
    snip
    When a feast was held to celebrate the weaning of Isaac, who was born 13 years later, Ishmael caused trouble by insulting and mocking his little brother (Genesis 21:8-9). After Sarah, who by then had come to dislike both Hagar and Ishmael, saw what he was doing, she said to Abraham "Cast out this slave woman with her son; for the son of this slave woman shall not be heir with my son Isaac." (Genesis 21:10 RSV)

    "But God said to Abraham, "Be not displeased because of the lad and because of your slave woman; whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your descendants be named. And I will make a nation of the son of the slave woman also, because he is your offspring." (Genesis 21:12-13 RSV)
    snip
    Hagar and Ishmael were sent away, but they were not abandoned. God appeared and spoke to Hagar, assuring her that He would watch over them and see them prosper (Genesis 21:17-19). "And God was with the lad, and he grew up; he lived in the wilderness, and became an expert with the bow. He lived in the wilderness of Paran; and his mother took a wife for him from the land of Egypt" (Genesis 21:20-21 RSV).

    Isaac and Ishmael apparently did not meet again until Abraham died: "Isaac and Ishmael his sons buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, east of Mamre, the field which Abraham purchased from the Hittites.

    There Abraham was buried, with Sarah his wife" (Genesis 25:9-10 RSV). The place today is known as the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron, where the conflict for control of it still rages between the descendants of Isaac and Ishmael.

    Ishmael lived 137 years (Genesis 25:17). He had 12 sons, who became the founders of Ishmaelite tribes that spread from Egypt to what is today Iraq.

    Many of the modern-day Arab peoples correctly recognize that they are the descendants of Ishmael, while the Jews, and the rest of the Israelites, are descendants of Isaac - but all are descended from Abraham..." From His seed."...
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  10. #30  
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    I went back and read it today. I do think God recognizes that descendants would be counted by who was born of one's wife, not the slave. That doesn't mean that God agrees with that. He said it's through Isaak which Abraham's descendants will be counted, not that God himself will count it that way. I've read different Jewish resources discussing the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Anyway, one of the resources addressed the other side as "Son of Abraham." It appears even the Jews recognize them as the son of Abraham.

    I don't think I remember God predicting that Ishmael would be wild and hostile toward people, but I will re-look it up. I don't think being a man of the wilderness makes him hostile toward others. He probably did have some so called civility in him if he got a wife from Eygpt.

    I don't excuse Ishmael being uncivil toward Isaak, but I sort of wonder if Isaak's mother being so hateful and abusive toward Ishmael's mother might not have had something to do with Ishmael's attitude. People act like Sarah shouldn't have been held responsible for her hatefulness and her abusiveness when she very much should have been. I'm sorry. Reading that again today and I couldn't stand it.
    Last edited by Lanie; 01-23-2011 at 08:57 PM.
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