I'm not sure how to respond to this...

[fettpett]

I posted this video today from the Heritiage Foundation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcDnK...ature=youtu.be

and I got this response from my buddy:

I had an entire response to how offended I was by that video and why it proves you're not interested in listening to arguments about rights and merits, you're just interested in stats manipulated to make us (yes, I've dispensed with the second and third person, you are talking about me) look bad, whereas if we use stats that the source misrepresented, it's simply to edify us, not slam the opposition.

There was a lot more about what it takes to be a teacher and such, but the jist of it is, if you're supporting this bill, you're supporting taking away my rights to make a living according to the work that I've done.

If you're actually interested in hearing a sound argument, I suggest you start making one.

I then replied

Well I had a message written out and it got deleted.

First of all I respect you and all our friends that are teachers. Your dad was awesome. I can't teach and I don't have any desire to teach.

That said, no rights are being taken away. I've posted a link to the bill, either on yours or Kirsta's threads. The only thing that is going to happen is that your collective bargaining privilege will be limited to pay and that to inflation. If ya need more you go to the people of your district and ask them for more money through referendum. No pay is being cut other than the amount going to the increases in pension and healthcare that you've got to pay. Oh and on top of that you wont have to pay into the union unless you want to, which will offset your pension and healthcare costs.

I don't have problems with teachers, i have a problem with the unions, having been in one and seen first hand and been effect by the greed and politics that they are involved with. the local chapter of teamsters i was involved with spent $2 million dollars on Obama's campaign. $2 million dollars that could have had been spent on helping their union members pay for their insurance after we got laid off. We paid into our health care and couldn't even use 2/3's of it when we got laid off, namely dental and eye care. Your union isn't much different than mine, they don't give a shit about you or any other union member. At lest Walker is trying to do something save jobs. Doyle and Walker both have said with the budget that 6-12,000 jobs could be lost if these proposals don't go through.

I also asked if he watched the video, I got this response back from him:

Yes I did, and thanks for pointing out that we look like idiots to you. Also, the stats are misleading. The average teacher salary was based on people with multiple masters or PhDs, not the average for all public educators.

All I'll say is that you most certainly cannot compare two different unions and make the assertion or the plea that they're taking advantage of me, and I could cite first hand examples of the union protecting its workers, but Walker has set the standard that this argument can't stand on personal stories.

If you feel the need to continue this conversation with me, look up some real information about the WEA. As far as I'm concerned it's now support for the bill which impedes my ability to make a living representative of my level of education and experience (and yes, I do mean realistically commensurate to the state's current crisis, but the state won't know that, because the governor is more interested in union breaking than negotiating).

I just am not sure how to respond back...he asked me to make an argument but says that all the numbers are manipulated....I feel like i'm trying to reason with a 4 year old. I've known this guy since I was a kid and we've been friends since, he's not a stupid guy but it's hard to get where he is taking this...so aggravating

[Novaheart]

While from what little actual time I have invested in the issue, I am inclined to side with the employees on principle, what your acquaintance seems to be doing is what I call "There are no facts, everything is perspective." From discussions elsewhere, I am inclined to believe that colleges have for some time been teaching students that there are no facts, that there is no true answer on an issue, there is only opinion.

I have often been told that crime stats "don't mean anything, you can get figures to say anything". While these discussions don't actually matter one little bit, running up against this tactic does effectively shut down discussion because there is no point in continuing. This is why I often state my objective as simply to not let falsehoods go unchallenged rather than a futile attempt to convince an idiot, especially one who thinks he's educated because he's in or has been to college.

The only legitimate request of the governor is for economic concessions, if indeed the pain is being spread across the board, and if indeed the taxes are truly equitable. Then if the teachers are willing to take cuts, be it cash cuts or increased deductions, then it would be clear that the actual objective of the governor is to turn the public against the public employees for a political win against organized labor. If that's his objective, then he's a piece of shit and needs to go.

[lacarnut]

Teachers have gotten a free ride on pension and health care benefits for many years. The state can not sustain paying 100% of your pension and health care premiums. No corporation or very few have those type of benefits. Either you start paying your fair share or face layoffs. I worked as a state employee (non union) for 25years and paid 50% of health care benefits and 7% into my pension system which I think is more than fair. In my opinion and in the opinion of most workers in the private sector, we think that WI teachers do not want to negotiate a settlement; they want raises every year resulting in taxpayers paying higher property taxes and sales taxes. The nitty gritty is that continuing collective bargaining will result in massive layoffs cause teachers have abused the system with the perks outlined above for far too long.

[txradioguy]

Ask your friend A) Has he actually read Gov. Walkers bill and B) remind him that the MacIver Institute did a survey last year that revealed that with total compensation packages added in Wisc. Teachers make $100K a year.

That's dangerously close to being "rich" as defined by the Democrats.

I'd also point out that what the Gov. is asking them to contribute is well below the national averages of what Union and private employess have to pay across the nation for their compensation packages.

IMHO this is a bunch of whining by a group of union free loaders who are now unhappy that they are going to have to help fun their taxpayer supported gravy train.

[txradioguy]

The media has been sperading a lie...no doubt started by the Unions that people would see 20% of their salaries disappear overnight under the proposed legislation.

Not so according to PolitiFact"

Under the Republican governor’s plan, state employees would contribute 5.8 percent of their pay toward pensions and pay at least 12 percent of their health insurance premiums.

Meanwhile, we consulted other sources on how much more state workers would pay if the budget repair bill is adopted.

It’s a political debate, but this is largely a mathematical question.

Here’s what our sources said:

Carla Vigue, spokeswoman for the state Department of Administration: The higher contributions would amount to, on average, a 9.4 percent cut in take-home pay.
Joe Wineke, former administrator of the state Division of Compensation and Labor Relations and former chairman of the state Democratic Party: The impact on most workers would be 6.8 percent to 11 percent of their salary.
Walker spokesman Cullen Werwie: Detailed estimates are being prepared, but the cost to the average worker would be about 8 percent of their wages.
University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire Chancellor Brian Levin-Stankevich: In a memo, he said a UW-Eau Claire employee who earns $40,000 per year would pay an annual pension contribution of $2,320, up from $80; and an annual health insurance premium for family coverage of $2,820, up from $1,068. That’s a total of $3,992 per year, or 10 percent of that employee’s salary.

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/...sin-state-emp/

[fettpett]

the most annoying and frustrating part is that they keep harping on the "THEY'RE TAKING MY RIGHTS AWAY!!!!" bullshit. I've pointed out that collective bargaining isn't a right, it's a privilege and it's only being limited.

I guess my biggest confusion in his whole thing is which numbers he thinks are bing underrepresented

[txradioguy]

the most annoying and frustrating part is that they keep harping on the "THEY'RE TAKING MY RIGHTS AWAY!!!!" bullshit. I've pointed out that collective bargaining isn't a right, it's a privilege and it's only being limited.

Unions have been allowed to run rampant for so long and terrorize shops that use union members to the point that the Union members DO believe that what you and I and the law views as a privilege they are told practically from birth that it's a right for them to get everything they have and more.

I guess my biggest confusion in his whole thing is which numbers he thinks are bing underrepresented

If he can't give you details...then IMHO he's just repeating a talking point without thinking.

[fettpett]

Unions have been allowed to run rampant for so long and terrorize shops that use union members to the point that the Union members DO believe that what you and I and the law views as a privilege they are told practically from birth that it's a right for them to get everything they have and more.



If he can't give you details...then IMHO he's just repeating a talking point without thinking.

yeah, thats my guess too. His dad is a teacher as his one of his older brothers. I had his dad in HS and like I said earlier that we've been friends since we were kids.

I found this http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher...wisconsin.html that talks about teachers pay, I'm going to send it to him, but I haven't found one that show's benefits that aren't from an organization thats right or left leaning.

I'm just glad that he isn't jumping on the "There is no deficit" bandwagon.

[AmPat]

I just am not sure how to respond back...he asked me to make an argument but says that all the numbers are manipulated....I feel like i'm trying to reason with a 4 year old. I've known this guy since I was a kid and we've been friends since, he's not a stupid guy but it's hard to get where he is taking this...so aggravating

If this person cannot accept a set of facts that both of you agree are facts. Then there is no point arguing with him. My brother has an unreasonable loyalty to the unions that have kept him unemployed and broke all his life. The only "facts" he accepts are those provided him by his beloved union. They twist these guys around to believe what they want and any counter (actual, real, and verifiable) fact is a lie.

In sum, he is brainwashed and beyond logic.

[lacarnut]

I would also question PHDs working in the classroom as public school teachers. When a teacher gets a Masters or Masters plus thirty, they usually wind up in administration. My ex retired with the state as a Special Ed. principal and went to work in the public school making $70k a year. She has a Masters plus 30 but this is a non union public school in Louisiana which ranks pretty low in teacher pay.