Interesting...Hitler on Atheism, Islam and the idea of an Islamic Europe

[wilbur]

Yes, something more true like life is meaningless, pointless, just some sort of accident, nothing means anything. What a wonderful view of life.

YOU may think that's what life without belief in God is - but its not what I think life without belief in God is and I have never said as much. I think life is very meaningful, thank you very much.

You, like Odysseus, can't seem to grasp the fact that I am not nihilistic.

[Odysseus]

Didn't Hitler also say having two balls is overrated.

If so, there's hope for you yet.

Of course, this is not true. I'm certainly better at reason and logic than others, not as good as some - and am always willing to listen to those who demonstrate their desire to practice those virtues. Just because I point out that YOU do it extremely poorly, more often than not, doesn't mean I believe myself to be some super-human reasoner. :)

Funny thing is, you're the only one here who thinks that you are good at it.

I don't know what you're on about here.. I think honor is great, and wish more people had it.

I'd settle for you having it.

Hah. Wow. Ok. If you can show me where I professed that utility (or disutility) is the criteria with which to judge the value of life.. then I'll have to concede there that I am like a Nazi! Or if you can show me where the Nazi's demonstrated and upheld the principle that "Minds have value", then I'll definitely have to concede there as well, that I am totally Nazi-like! You got me!

The Nazi eugenics program was based on the idea that minds above a certain level were the only ones of value. This is how they justified the mass murder of the mentally retarded or otherwise lacked their concept of proper mental hygiene. Thus, they could murder innocent people who fell short of their definition of mental sufficiency, which became a short hop to executing people that they considered morally insufficient. Now, you say that you have never advocated killing those who are unfit? How about your endorsement of Terri Schiavo's execution by starvation? I'm sure that you will try to weasel out of this, but if the jackboot fits...

[CaughtintheMiddle1990]

YOU may think that's what life without belief in God is - but its not what I think life without belief in God is and I have never said as much. I think life is very meaningful, thank you very much.

You, like Odysseus, can't seem to grasp the fact that I am not nihilistic.

If life is just a cosmic accident, what is the point Wilbur?

[wilbur]

The Nazi eugenics program was based on the idea that minds above a certain level were the only ones of value. This is how they justified the mass murder of the mentally retarded or otherwise lacked their concept of proper mental hygiene. Thus, they could murder innocent people who fell short of their definition of mental sufficiency, which became a short hop to executing people that they considered morally insufficient.

Please. We all know that when your determined to find some intellectual connection between something disagreeable to you, and something evil, you'll find it, no matter what. When you want to find some intellectual connection between something you like, and something good, you stop at nothing to find it. From the laughable slippery slope scenarios about marriage, to the laughably exaggerated lines between judeo-christian thought and science/education/freedom/etc you are practically a walking monument to confirmation bias.

And now your words are already transforming in order to draw the connection you want, which is a connection between my beliefs and Nazism. First you said:

Yes, but it isn't ridiculous to point out that many of Wilbur's positions bring him to the same conclusions. For example, his dismissal of human life as having intrinsic value beyond its utility is extremely similar to the Nazi concept of “life unworthy of life”, or “Lebensunwertes Leben”.

So you first accused me of claiming that human life has no intrinsic value beyond its utility, and that this is what was Nazi-like. Well, I never agreed that value is equivalent or based upon utility. And in fact, I think my response blatantly denied it, here:

... If you can show me where I professed that utility (or disutility) is the criteria with which to judge the value of life...

And since I destroyed that attempt at a connection, you are attempting to rebuild that connection yet again, by re-jiggering the wording. Suddenly its not utility that Nazi's cared about, they believed that intrinsic value arises based on the one's mental acuity. Funny how Nazi beliefs keep changing in accordance with what you believe my beliefs to be. Unfortunately though, this is also not an accurate recapitulation of my beliefs, which place value on the existence of the mind - not on various measurements of mental capacity, like IQ, or social skills, or dubious evaluations of a minds affect on the genetic fitness of the human race.

And surely you were closer to the Nazi's actual beliefs the first time. They looked at mental acuity as a measure of utility - and utility was what they valued.

But I guess as long as you are willing to keep changing the beliefs of the Nazi's to align with my beliefs, then yea, I am Nazi-like - in your head. Thankfully, as a believer in objective reality, this actually doesnt matter much, outside your head. Maybe its you who are the real nihilist here.

Though I do have to say, I am very interested to see in what way the beliefs of the long dead Nazis will change next.

Now, you say that you have never advocated killing those who are unfit? How about your endorsement of Terri Schiavo's execution by starvation? I'm sure that you will try to weasel out of this, but if the jackboot fits...

Oh brother... I guess your honor code doesnt exclude drawing *absurd* false equivalences - nor does it include representing the beliefs of your oppositions in arguments fairly or even accurately, as any person with integrity would do. Though, this is nothing new.

Say what you will about slippery slopes, but ceasing with extraordinary life saving measures for an essentially brain dead patient with no hope of recovery - versus the systematic execution of otherwise healthy people with lower IQ's - isnt even the same damn mountain. In the former case, there is well established precedent that first prioritizes any aforementioned expressed wishes of the person who is incapacitated. In the case that no such wishes were formally expressed, we generally leave the decision to the loved ones. In this case, there was a dispute between loved ones.

If you can show me where I argued that it was the moral obligation for the state to starve TS to death, then you might have a point - but you can't, because I didn't. It should be up to her loved ones... and where the law places its priority (ie, husband or parents) is a complicated and murky issue, to which I see no clear answer, though yea - I didnt lean towards the husband.

And in the end, the autopsy did confirm that she was long gone already - and we can say for certain that no moral harm was done in letting her die - even in letting her starve to death, since there was no capacity for pain, nor any mind left of any sort.

[wilbur]

If life is just a cosmic accident, what is the point Wilbur?

I would argue that its Eudaemonia - or flourishing - since to seek it seems to be an objective trait of beings with minds. I think its rather silly to suggest that beings should stop caring about it, simply because no God exists.

[CaughtintheMiddle1990]

I would argue that its Eudaemonia - or flourishing - since to seek it seems to be an objective trait of beings with minds. I think its rather silly to suggest that beings should stop caring about it, simply because no God exists.

But without any sort of purpose, we become purposeless, unless we, after a time, promote ourselves to the position of "God". And that is a very dangerous road to travel down. I would say that even if God DOESN'T exist, belief in something higher governing human actions is a NORMAL human behavior which basically, to be blunt, keeps us in line.

[wilbur]

But without any sort of purpose, we become purposeless

Ok, yes that is true - if we have no purpose, then we are purposeless, by definition. But the existence of God does not create purpose - nor does it take it away.

Even if God existed and had a purpose, we could always pose the question, "What is the purpose of this?" If he wants us all to live forever in heaven.. well, what is the purpose of that? You might say its the perfect existence, well, I can still ask what the purpose of that is. If you say its to be happy forever, I can ask what is the purpose of being happy forever?

unless we, after a time, promote ourselves to the position of "God". And that is a very dangerous road to travel down. I would say that even if God DOESN'T exist, belief in something higher governing human actions is a NORMAL human behavior which basically, to be blunt, keeps us in line.

We are only kept "in line" until the next charismatic "prophet" or priest comes along and is able to convince us differently. Gods purpose for you is what you have been convinced it is, by other men.