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  1. #1 Grappling With the Libyan "Intervention" 
    Senior Member Arroyo_Doble's Avatar
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    Grappling With the Libyan "Intervention"

    Goddamn, how the Rude Pundit really, really wants to get on board with the whole Libyan totally-not-a-war intervention. No, he'd love to be standing there, waving his mighty fist o' liberal rage and saying, "Fuck you, Qaddafi/Ghaddafi/Kadaffy," and proudly admirin' how much we're a-savin' the rebels. As someone who back in the day was pretty much screaming, "What the fuck, Clinton?" back in the day with Bosnia and Rwanda, you'd think the Rude Pundit would wanna jump with glee at the humanitarian purpose that the no-fly zone has, as the halting of what might Gaddafi himself said would be a slaughter.

    But he can't. 'Cause there's just some shit here that's gnawing at him, preventing that war hard-on. He remembers having this feeling back when the United States invaded Afghanistan, but he was able to put it aside for a couple of months while we were presumptively going to find and arrest/kill/corpse-photo Osama bin Laden. Now, though, with Libya, even though good liberals everywhere tell him that this is a good thing, this has a purpose, even though the President articulated what sounded like a decent case for decency, he can't jump on the train.

    See, President Obama lost the Rude Pundit last night when, during his address to the nation, he said of the mad colonel, "He has denied his people freedom, exploited their wealth, murdered opponents at home and abroad, and terrorized innocent people around the world - including Americans who were killed by Libyan agents" and "In the past, we have seen him hang civilians in the streets, and kill over a thousand people in a single day." Yep, that's true, and it sucks and makes him a vile, evil fucker who truly deserves to live out eternity in a hell where he's chained to a table and has plastic surgery performed on him endlessly without anesthetic. The thing is that he did that shit and more, but, back before the revolt in Libya, the Obama administration was taking steps towards arms sales with Gaddafi (in the wake of George W. Bush making nice with Libya).

    In March 2009, the American ambassador to Libya, Gene Cretz, told the Financial Times, "The new military relationship would begin with training programs, followed by the sale of non-lethal weaponry." Then "at some point, if both sides want it...we would hope that [the sale of lethal weapons] would be a culmination of our military relationship." At the same time, a Defense Department spokesperson said, "We will consider Libyan requests for defense equipment that enables them to build capabilities in areas that serve our mutual interest." Man, Lockheed-Martin must have been worried about the Iraq war winding down.

    Now, of course, things do change over the course of a couple of years. But what doesn't change is the past. And, in 2009, the very Gaddafi that the Obama administration was hoping to have defense equipment-trading sex with, ending with a lethal weapon sales orgasm, is the same Gaddafi who strung up and murdered his own people. So what fucking galls the Rude Pundit now is that, prior to the current war (and, fuck you, it's a war - we didn't all sit down and tell Libya how its actions make us feel), all that other shit that Gaddafi did was going to be forgotten about and the same President Obama who spoke so forcefully against the Libyan leader was going to see if we could get to a place where we sell him weapons.

    I have to admit, I am pretty ambivalent about the whole thing myself. A good speech by Obama that appealed to patriotism and American pride is not enough. The fact that he had to use emotional appeals when he is a pragmatic leader should give people pause.

    I know that I have been critical over the years of Clinton and the West's inaction in Rwanda but Libya is not even close to the severity of that atrocity nor was the cost of intervention to prevent the genocide in Rwanda as high as what this action appears to be.

    Like I said, I am ambivalent.
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  2. #2  
    Zoomie djones520's Avatar
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    I am supportive of defending those who cannot defend themselves. That is a big part of the reason I joined the military. But I have serious reservations about this. Especially with the Al Qaeda ties that the rebel groups have. And now the talks of arming the rebels scare me even more. We would be putting our own weapons into the hands of people who I do not doubt at all will be funnelling them to Iraq and Afghanistan.

    This is a dirty affair, and if we insist on continuing the operation, then we need to step back, figure out what the fuck is going on, and proceed along the best route for ourselves.
    In most sports, cold-cocking an opposing player repeatedly in the face with a series of gigantic Slovakian uppercuts would get you a multi-game suspension without pay.

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  3. #3  
    Senior Member Arroyo_Doble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djones520 View Post
    I am supportive of defending those who cannot defend themselves. That is a big part of the reason I joined the military. But I have serious reservations about this. Especially with the Al Qaeda ties that the rebel groups have. And now the talks of arming the rebels scare me even more. We would be putting our own weapons into the hands of people who I do not doubt at all will be funnelling them to Iraq and Afghanistan.
    I heard about that this morning. Very disturbing. On its face, it seems incredibly short sighted since in the same report (NPR) on Libya, there was admitted confusion over who exactly the "Interim Government" is (at least Clinton is sending an envoy to find out).

    This is a dirty affair, and if we insist on continuing the operation, then we need to step back, figure out what the fuck is going on, and proceed along the best route for ourselves.
    I agree.
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    Senior Member txradioguy's Avatar
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    So when is he going to go to congress and get the approval he's required to have?

    Or are you both ok with him thumbing his nose...again...at his Constitutional responsibilities?
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    Senior Member txradioguy's Avatar
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    Never mind the fact he's used the same exact reasons we went into Iraq to justify his war in Libya.

    Different President...different set of rules.

    In Memory Of My Friend 1st Sgt. Tim Millsap A Co, 70th Eng. Bn. 3rd Bde 1st AD...K.I.A. 25 April 2005

    Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

    To Achieve Ordered Liberty You Must Have Moral Order As Well

    The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.
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  6. #6  
    Zoomie djones520's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txradioguy View Post
    So when is he going to go to congress and get the approval he's required to have?

    Or are you both ok with him thumbing his nose...again...at his Constitutional responsibilities?
    Of course not. I do recall he had 48 hours to do it once the action was taken. I haven't heard word about it since then, so I don't really know if he did or not. I do believe Congress was out on vacation when it happened though, so *shrugs* who knows.
    In most sports, cold-cocking an opposing player repeatedly in the face with a series of gigantic Slovakian uppercuts would get you a multi-game suspension without pay.

    In hockey, it means you have to sit in the penalty box for five minutes.
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  7. #7  
    Senior Member txradioguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djones520 View Post
    Of course not. I do recall he had 48 hours to do it once the action was taken. I haven't heard word about it since then, so I don't really know if he did or not. I do believe Congress was out on vacation when it happened though, so *shrugs* who knows.
    Newsflash Jonesy...he hasn't gone to Congress for the approval he is required by the War Powers Act to get.

    And guess what...he doesn't plan to go to them either.
    In Memory Of My Friend 1st Sgt. Tim Millsap A Co, 70th Eng. Bn. 3rd Bde 1st AD...K.I.A. 25 April 2005

    Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

    To Achieve Ordered Liberty You Must Have Moral Order As Well

    The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.
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  8. #8  
    Senior Member Arroyo_Doble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djones520 View Post
    Of course not. I do recall he had 48 hours to do it once the action was taken. I haven't heard word about it since then, so I don't really know if he did or not. I do believe Congress was out on vacation when it happened though, so *shrugs* who knows.
    Congress was notified back on the 21st.

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  9. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by djones520 View Post
    Of course not. I do recall he had 48 hours to do it once the action was taken.
    I am sure that was 48 "working hours" right? :D
    Liberals are proof that evolution is only a theory. Nothing that stupid could evolve past a monkey.
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  10. #10  
    Zoomie djones520's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txradioguy View Post
    Newsflash Jonesy...he hasn't gone to Congress for the approval he is required by the War Powers Act to get.

    And guess what...he doesn't plan to go to them either.
    According to the War Powers Act, when Congress is adjourned, it is up to the Speaker and President Pro Temp to request the President to convene Congress if they see fit to do so. They did not. That's from Sec. 5. (a) if you wanna look it up.

    Furthermore, he does not need to seak Congressional approval. He just has to submit a report to Congress stating this.

    the President shall submit within 48 hours to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and to the President pro tempore of the Senate a report, in writing, setting forth—
    (A) the circumstances necessitating the introduction of United States Armed Forces;
    (B) the constitutional and legislative authority under which such introduction took place; and
    (C) the estimated scope and duration of the hostilities or involvement.
    Action beyond 60 days requires a resolution to be passed.

    Now, the question is, did that report ever get submitted? I haven't been able to find any word on that.

    Edit:

    Yes he did. Dated within 48 hours.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-...erations-libya
    In most sports, cold-cocking an opposing player repeatedly in the face with a series of gigantic Slovakian uppercuts would get you a multi-game suspension without pay.

    In hockey, it means you have to sit in the penalty box for five minutes.
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