Can a nation restrict political speech for the interest of national security?

[ColonialMarine0431]

nevermind, i'm dumb LOL :D


It NEVER should have been ruled Constitutional

:D It never should have happened. Woodrow Wilson was the original Liberal Fascist. No doubt a man that Obama admires.

[fettpett]

:D It never should have happened. Woodrow Wilson was the original Liberal Fascist. No doubt a man that Obama admires.

yeah, I agree

[Wei Wu Wei]

It would'nt pass muster today but it was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court in Abrams v. United States in 1919 until Congress repealed the Sedition Act on December 13, 1920.

The gist of what I'm saying is that most Americans don't think that you can be throw in jail for speaking against the gubbment in war time, when in actuality it has already been done in American history.

Not to mention Lincoln suspending Habeas.

This is a key point for this discussion. I don't think it's a partisan issue here it's just the facts of our history.

[Wei Wu Wei]

How many people prosecuted under the Espionage Act or the Sedition act were guilty of speech crimes? How many of these people were socialists?


The answer: a lot

People faced arrests, imprisonment, violent off-the-record beatings, and deportation. There was a period where loyalty tests were common and anything that could be considered anti-war or anti-capitalist was enough to get a friendly knock at your door.

[NJCardFan]

How many people prosecuted under the Espionage Act or the Sedition act were guilty of speech crimes? How many of these people were socialists?


The answer: a lot

Names and their alleged crimes please. You just can't make a blanket statement like this and not back it up so supply the names of people who were prosecuted for speech crimes.

[Wei Wu Wei]

Kate Richards O'Hare - gave a speech that was deemed dangerous

Eugene Debs - Arrested for giving a speech

Robert Goldstein, producer of Spirit of '76 - arrested for making a movie about the American Revolution that portrayed the British negatively

Fred Fairchild - arrested for stating he would not go to war during a civilian argument

Not to mention the Palmer Raids(link):

The Palmer Raids were attempts by the United States Department of Justice to arrest and deport radical leftists, especially anarchists, from the United States. The raids and arrests occurred in November 1919 and January 1920 under the leadership of Attorney General A. Mitchell Palmer. Though more than 500 foreign citizens were deported, including a number of prominent leftist leaders, Palmer's efforts were largely frustrated by officials at the U.S. Department of Labor who had responsibility for deportations and who objected to Palmer's methods and disrespect for the legal process. The Palmer Raids occurred in the larger context of the Red Scare, the term given to fear of and reaction against political radicals in the U.S. in the years immediately following World War I.

[ColonialMarine0431]

Names and their alleged crimes please. You just can't make a blanket statement like this and not back it up so supply the names of people who were prosecuted for speech crimes.

I think he was addressing the Sedition Act of 1918, not modern day, when there were arrests and some prosecutions for speaking against Woodrow Wilson and our involvement in WWI. But beatings? I don't know.

[Wei Wu Wei]

I think he was addressing the Sedition Act of 1918, not modern day, when there were arrests and some prosecutions for speaking against Woodrow Wilson and our involvement in WWI. But beatings? I don't know.

let me be specific with the beatings.

in WWI there were many conscientious objectors to the war who were drafted anyway. many of them requested support or non-combat roles and faced serious unofficial punishments by other soldiers. this was not part of a specific policy of course, but there are records of it happening.

there was a long quote from a book i read the other day of someone describing what they would do in that situation. i'll try to post the exact quote when i can get my hands on that book again.

[Melody]

My own words reflect the amendment word for word. It's the first amendment for a reason. Again, it's not ambiguous. What another country does does not concern me. What this country does, does. Even if it's speech I don't agree with, that person or persons have the right to spew it. Even you. All speech is protected as in you have the right to say it. However, you have to choose your words carefully.

"you have to choose your words carefully"

So, this is what our freedom of speech is boiled down to?

Being carefull of how we speak, what we speak. Fear multiplied to keep us silent, complacent?

[malloc]

Kate Richards O'Hare - gave a speech that was deemed dangerous

Eugene Debs - Arrested for giving a speech

Robert Goldstein, producer of Spirit of '76 - arrested for making a movie about the American Revolution that portrayed the British negatively

Fred Fairchild - arrested for stating he would not go to war during a civilian argument

Not to mention the Palmer Raids(link):

The Palmer Raids were attempts by the United States Department of Justice to arrest and deport radical leftists, especially anarchists, from the United States. The raids and arrests occurred in November 1919 and January 1920 under the leadership of Attorney General A. Mitchell Palmer. Though more than 500 foreign citizens were deported, including a number of prominent leftist leaders, Palmer's efforts were largely frustrated by officials at the U.S. Department of Labor who had responsibility for deportations and who objected to Palmer's methods and disrespect for the legal process. The Palmer Raids occurred in the larger context of the Red Scare, the term given to fear of and reaction against political radicals in the U.S. in the years immediately following World War I.

Targeting seditious foreign nationals for deportment is hardly anything I would consider unconscionable. Coming to the U.S. as a guest is a privilege, not a right, more so when the U.S. accepts one as a refugee from the Russian Revolution. The main group targeted for deportation, The Union of Russian Workers, openly advocated in their Declaration of Principles, that they stood for uniting American and Canadian workers against capitalism and "forces of authority". In other words, they were not citizens, but guests in our country who openly organized and advocated an insurrection against the very government and people who were harboring them. Deportation was justified.