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  1. #21  
    Senior Member Arroyo_Doble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    I don't think so.


    Nothing ironic about the name. And Cashill makes a number of points which are thought provoking. For those not inclined to take your word for it, they can read his analyses here: http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/...y_fathe_1.html, http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/...y_it_ma_1.html
    and
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/...of_hope_1.html

    First, his comparison between Dreams and Bill Ayers' Fugitive Days turned up a number of similarities. His QSUM analysis shows almost identical sentence structures, level of readability and grade level between the two books, and a significant disparity between Dreams and The Audacity of Hope, a much less sophisticated effort. His text comparisons find a number of unique themes, phrases and linguistic tics that appear in both Ayers' and Obama's books, but which do not appear in any of Obama's other writing samples. Finally, he produces examples of writing that is indisputably Obama's, from his few published articles, which demonstrate a far poorer command of language and grammar and a completely different style of writing than found in Dreams.
    *shrug*

    Like I tell most people, incredible claims demand incredible proof and unlike some, my credulity isn't selective.
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  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Arroyo_Doble View Post
    *shrug*

    Like I tell most people, incredible claims demand incredible proof and unlike some, my credulity isn't selective.
    I'm also familiar with this analysis. It's more than a little thought-provoking. The claim is hardly "incredible"; presidential literary frauds are more common than you might realize. The analysis uses the standard tools available for document investigation. The same tools used in any literary analysis where authorship may be in question. This isn't fringe stuff.

    Personally, I wouldn't be surprised to find that Obama farmed his opus out for fine-tuning. It's common enough.
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  3. #23  
    Senior Member Arroyo_Doble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gingersnap View Post
    I'm also familiar with this analysis. It's more than a little thought-provoking. The claim is hardly "incredible"; presidential literary frauds are more common than you might realize. The analysis uses the standard tools available for document investigation. The same tools used in any literary analysis where authorship may be in question. This isn't fringe stuff.

    Personally, I wouldn't be surprised to find that Obama farmed his opus out for fine-tuning. It's common enough.
    How common? Name three.
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  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by Arroyo_Doble View Post
    How common? Name three.
    Grant, Eisenhower, and JKF. Jeez, everybody knows this.
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  5. #25  
    Best Bounty Hunter in the Forums fettpett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arroyo_Doble View Post
    How common? Name three.
    Washington used a Ghostwriter as well
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  6. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gingersnap View Post
    Grant, Eisenhower, and JKF. Jeez, everybody knows this.
    Seriously about Grant? I wasn't aware that his autobiography was questioned. I think I remember that Twain was the publisher. Do they think he had a hand in it? Is there a strong consensus, or just speculation?
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  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lager View Post
    Seriously about Grant? I wasn't aware that his autobiography was questioned. I think I remember that Twain was the publisher. Do they think he had a hand in it? Is there a strong consensus, or just speculation?
    Grant published a number of works in addition to his autobiography and yes, the kind of people who research these things believe that Twain (perhaps among others) had a deft hand in his literary work.
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  8. #28  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arroyo_Doble View Post
    *shrug*

    Like I tell most people, incredible claims demand incredible proof and unlike some, my credulity isn't selective.
    Sure it is. You just believe what NPR tells you to believe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gingersnap View Post
    Grant published a number of works in addition to his autobiography and yes, the kind of people who research these things believe that Twain (perhaps among others) had a deft hand in his literary work.
    That would explain how Grant was able to complete the memoirs just before dying from cancer of the throat. Still, I always assumed that he'd written them.
    --Odysseus
    Sic Hacer Pace, Para Bellum.

    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
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  9. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lager View Post
    Seriously about Grant? I wasn't aware that his autobiography was questioned. I think I remember that Twain was the publisher. Do they think he had a hand in it? Is there a strong consensus, or just speculation?
    You actually believe that Grant was ever sober enough to hold a pen in his hand and write a book? I sure don't.

    I expect that everyone who is not actually a professional writer has some manner of help in writing a book. The trick is where the gray area begins and ends. If I write my own autobiography (which would be pretty damn dull anyway) and I dictate it to a secretary, did I write the book, or did my secretary? If I take that dictation, or even if I type it all out myself, and I ask my brother, who is a multiply-published historical author to look it over and see what he thinks, and he makes some phraseology corrections, does that make him a ghost-writer? Or is he just a handy editor?

    What if I collaborate with some excellent researcher and take some of their notes in whole and put them in a book? The notes are so clear and well-written that they could not be written better. Does that make my researcher a ghost-writer? Am I a plagiarist? I have acknowledged in the forward and throughout the book that my researcher found XYZ, and the context should make it clear that my researcher wrote this and that passage.

    There's a pretty vast, gray gulf there between someone who writes every single word on his own and edits his own work and someone who just does the writing and lets someone else put their name down as the author. Because of this, I am hesitant to outright claim that Ayers is a ghost-writer for Obama, because to me, ghost-writing is the extreme later of the above. I do, however, think that Ayers had a pretty heavy hand in the writing of Dreams, and I think that Obama doesn't want anyone to know because it would wind up showing that he's not nearly as intelligent as he's portrayed to be. Many people who are paying attention already realize that he's not a very intelligent person, but a revelation about his first autobiography not being written by him would just blow the lid off of it.
    Olde-style, states' rights conservative. Ask if this concept confuses you.
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  10. #30  
    PORCUS STAPHUS ADMIN Rockntractor's Avatar
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    I remember the left bragging during the election about how refreshing it was to have a candidate that was such a capable writer.

    Revelation 15:1
    And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
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