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  1. #21  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhrushchevsShoe View Post
    They basically inherited the company... I fail to see what they themselves created that justifies their constant bitching.
    The inherited a government that has now amassed $14 trillion in debt. That's grounds for bitching.
    Quote Originally Posted by KhrushchevsShoe View Post
    First, it wasn't small.

    Second, where would they have been without that inheritance? Hm? They were born into the opportunity they were given, so dont expect them to understand how people who aren't as lucky cant be like them.
    Who knows? But they took the inheritance and built it up through their own effort and talent. Don't they have a right to protect that?
    Quote Originally Posted by KhrushchevsShoe View Post
    I dont like wealth.
    Fixed
    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    It's not even about them being wealthy, it's about the disproportiate amount of power and influence these people have in this Plutocracy we call the United States.
    And here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    It's the fact that such incredible wealth accumulation necessarily comes with mass exploitation.
    No, that's the opinion of those who have never actually accumulated any wealth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    It's the fact that the Koch brothers openly and feverishly engage in Class War by using their wealth to destroy policies that benefit the working class, because doing so increases their profit margins.
    This is also an opinion, not a fact. The policies that they oppose actually punish workers by restricting the capital available for their labor, discourage competition that would allow some to achieve more and destroy incentives to expand businesses and emply more workers, thus increasing the demand for labor, and the cost of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    This shouldn't be made into something too personal, this isn't abou the Koch brothers being bad people, or having bad morals, or demonizing them in particular. As pointed out, they also contribute to good causes and I'm sure in their personal life they are kind and loving to the people close to them.
    This after you called them plutocrats who wage class warfare against workers. No, nothing demonizing there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    The problem is systemic, it's not that the Koch brothers are dong something wrong, it's that the system necessarily creates Koch brothers, who engage in political hijacking, who overwhelm the political system for the purpose of class war.
    The system that creates the aspect of the Koch brothers that you despise is the system that politicizes business decisions and imposes politics on private companies and individuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    Capitalists do what they do not because they are bad people, but because that's what a capitalist must do.

    While the Koch brothers are good poster-children for the image of the wealthy capitalist elites exploiting people and using their non-elected financial power to control the elected representatives in our political system, it's dangerous to make it too much about them.
    Spare us the Marxist cliches. Seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    If the left focuses too hard on the Koch brothers, it makes it out as if they are just bad people and maybe if we had nicer people (like liberals) then it would all be okay, but that is just not true. The problem isn[t the personal characteristics or opinions of this wealthy class, it's the very structurally necessary existence and activities of this wealthy class
    But the left believes in benign dictators. They'd be perfectly happy with an enlightened Stalin or Mao. It's all about the people who have power, not the concentration of power itself, which is why they are okay with Soros but not Koch, even though Soros came to his wealth through manipulation of currencies that impoverished millions of working people, who they claim to care about.
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  2. #22  
    An Adversary of Linda #'s
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    The inherited a government that has now amassed $14 trillion in debt. That's grounds for bitching.

    Who knows? But they took the inheritance and built it up through their own effort and talent. Don't they have a right to protect that?

    Fixed

    And here we go again...


    No, that's the opinion of those who have never actually accumulated any wealth.


    This is also an opinion, not a fact. The policies that they oppose actually punish workers by restricting the capital available for their labor, discourage competition that would allow some to achieve more and destroy incentives to expand businesses and emply more workers, thus increasing the demand for labor, and the cost of it.


    This after you called them plutocrats who wage class warfare against workers. No, nothing demonizing there.


    The system that creates the aspect of the Koch brothers that you despise is the system that politicizes business decisions and imposes politics on private companies and individuals.


    Spare us the Marxist cliches. Seriously.



    But the left believes in benign dictators. They'd be perfectly happy with an enlightened Stalin or Mao. It's all about the people who have power, not the concentration of power itself, which is why they are okay with Soros but not Koch, even though Soros came to his wealth through manipulation of currencies that impoverished millions of working people, who they claim to care about.
    But,But Soros wants to destroy America and pick the carcass clean .Wi Wi and Old Shoe are obviously good with that !
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  3. #23  
    Our widdle friend. Wei Wu Wei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    But the left believes in benign dictators. They'd be perfectly happy with an enlightened Stalin or Mao. It's all about the people who have power, not the concentration of power itself, which is why they are okay with Soros but not Koch, even though Soros came to his wealth through manipulation of currencies that impoverished millions of working people, who they claim to care about.
    Do not confuse liberals with leftists.

    Liberals like Soros. Leftists generally do not.

    Liberals think if we get someone into that overly powerful position who agrees with them about liberal ideas, then it will work.

    Leftists think that it's that powerful position itself which causes problems, not who occupies it.


    A good analogy is small-government conservatives. These people generally want restrictions of executive power, and less federal overreach. Do you think that it would be good to have a MASSIVE ALL POWEFUL GOVERNMENT, as long as the person in power was a right-winger like reagan? Would conservatives support Reagan as a dictator? No, because conservatives aren't upset about the wrong people being in government, they are upset about government itself.
    Last edited by Wei Wu Wei; 04-29-2011 at 03:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Smith - Wealth of Nations
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
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  4. #24  
    Our widdle friend. Wei Wu Wei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by megimoo View Post
    But,But Soros wants to destroy America and pick the carcass clean .Wi Wi and Old Shoe are obviously good with that !
    you are so bad at this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Smith - Wealth of Nations
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
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  5. #25  
    Our widdle friend. Wei Wu Wei's Avatar
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    Conservatives are opposed to anyone being in control of a Big Government, not just liberals. An honest conservative would be just as opposed to a right wing big governemnt as they would a liberal big government.

    This is because what conservatives are really opposed to is that much power being concentrated into the hands of a small group.

    This is exactly what leftists are oppoed to as well, the difference is that leftists also see economic power as just as big, if not a bigger source of influence than political power.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Smith - Wealth of Nations
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
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  6. #26  
    Senior Member txradioguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by megimoo View Post
    But,But Soros wants to destroy America and pick the carcass clean .Wi Wi and Old Shoe are obviously good with that !
    Yup somehow they think if America as we know it is destroyed they will somehow be rewarded for their loyalty to those that helped bring it down.

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    The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.
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  7. #27  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    Do not confuse liberals with leftists.
    The stop changing what you want to be called every time the previous term becomes toxic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    Liberals like Soros. Leftists generally do not.
    Soros appears to fund both. Go figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    Liberals think if we get someone into that overly powerful position who agrees with them about liberal ideas, then it will work.
    Leftists think that it's that powerful position itself which causes problems, not who occupies it.
    WTF???? Leftists and liberals both seek to consolidate power in government. Stalin, Mao, Castro and Pol Pot were leftists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    A good analogy is small-government conservatives. These people generally want restrictions of executive power, and less federal overreach. Do you think that it would be good to have a MASSIVE ALL POWEFUL GOVERNMENT, as long as the person in power was a right-winger like reagan? Would conservatives support Reagan as a dictator? No, because conservatives aren't upset about the wrong people being in government, they are upset about government itself.
    Obviously not, but leftists invariably demand massive, all-powerful governments. Marx's dictatorship of the proletariat is a leftist goal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    Conservatives are opposed to anyone being in control of a Big Government, not just liberals. An honest conservative would be just as opposed to a right wing big governemnt as they would a liberal big government.

    This is because what conservatives are really opposed to is that much power being concentrated into the hands of a small group.

    This is exactly what leftists are oppoed to as well, the difference is that leftists also see economic power as just as big, if not a bigger source of influence than political power.
    This is such blatant disinformation that I cannot believe that you believe it.
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  8. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    The stop changing what you want to be called every time the previous term becomes toxic.


    Soros appears to fund both. Go figure.


    WTF???? Leftists and liberals both seek to consolidate power in government. Stalin, Mao, Castro and Pol Pot were leftists.


    Obviously not, but leftists invariably demand massive, all-powerful governments. Marx's dictatorship of the proletariat is a leftist goal.

    This is such blatant disinformation that I cannot believe that you believe it.
    I'm a liberal and, no, Marx isn't my goal.
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  9. #29  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaughtintheMiddle1990 View Post
    I'm a liberal and, no, Marx isn't my goal.
    You're not a liberal, at least, not anymore. You are a moderate with some libertarian/conservative tendencies and some liberal ones.
    --Odysseus
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    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
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  10. #30  
    Administrator SaintLouieWoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhrushchevsShoe View Post
    They basically inherited the company... I fail to see what they themselves created that justifies their constant bitching.
    If a bunch of libs hanging out at Whole Foods and at the local university inherited the company, it probably would go down the drain. The Kochs not only expanded the company but they took a huge portion of the wealth and donated it to causes that would benefit everyone, liberal, leftists, rightists, etc.

    They didn't use it to buy phony carbon credits and all that BS. They're helping eradicate cancer by contributing to some of the leading cancer research facilities.

    I worked for a small business (with just a bit under 500 employees) that had been expanded from a local company in St Louis to a company with offices throughout Texas, Arkansas, Kansas and Missouri. The sons who inherited the business could have sat on their rears and enjoyed the status quo. Instead they created more jobs.

    I guess it's beyond the capability of some folks on the left to understand this concept. The Community Organizer/President certainly doesn't understand it. How can we expect KS or Wei wei to grasp this concept?
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