Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 24
  1. #1 TNO-Ody-Rock discuss Van Jones and School Massacres 
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    FT Belvoir, VA
    Posts
    15,638
    Quote Originally Posted by The Night Owl View Post
    Look, everyone! Nightie's back! That's good, because the last time I posted a question that you couldn't answer, you disappeared for almost three months! Here it is again, so that we can take up where you left off:

    Hey! Nightie's back! I was beginning to think that you were never going to come back and admit that you were wrong about the whole Van Jones thing. Here's the last post on the subject, from that other thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Night Owl View Post
    I can see we're getting nowhere. For the sake of argument, let's accept that the Atlantic Shores Christian School shooting is an example of a Columbine-style attack. I think it's a massive stretch to describe it as such but let's put that aside for now. How do we know that Van Jones knew about the 200 rounds of ammunition involved in the ASCS shooting when he made the claim that no black child has ever committed a Columbine-style attack? I checked out this claim of 200 rounds of ammunition (mostly because I don't trust you) and I can tell you there hasn't been much written about it, at least not in the mainstream press (unless you consider Mother Jones to be mainstream press). That doesn't mean the claim of 200 rounds isn't true but it does mean that Jones may not have known about it when he talked about school shootings. So, even if we accept that Jones was wrong to claim that no black child has ever committed a Columbine-style attack, that doesn't mean he's racist. It only means he's wrong.
    You don't trust me? Why is it that when Van Jones makes a sweeping statement about all white kids, you are prepared to contort yourself into various improbable shapes in order to deny that it is a racist sentiment, but when Glenn Beck makes a claim that Jones was a convicted felon, you assume nefarious motives?

    And once again, you lie. There has been a great deal written about Elliott (over 90,000 hits on Google), although the most interesting thing is how often his race isn't mentioned in the articles. And after shooting two teachers, he continued to engage targets until he was tackled. From the Atlantic:

    The Story of a Gun
    By ERIK LARSON
    On December 16, 1988, Nicholas Elliot, barely sixteen, walked into the Atlantic Shores Christian School, in Virginia Beach, Virginia, with a semi-automatic handgun hidden in his backpack. By midmorning a forty-one year-old teacher had been shot dead, and another teacher, struck by two nine-millimeter bullets, was extraordinarily lucky to be alive. Two other teachers narrowly escaped Nicholas Elliot's bullets.
    If Jones didn't know about Elliott, then he is ignorant and makes sweeping statements about racial behaviors without knowledge of the facts. If I were to make the claim that no Jew ever committed a terrorist act, I'd Google it before I said something that could be proven false. Jones didn't know because he didn't want to know. In his mind, whites are violent, toxic racists. Any facts to the contrary would not have been of interest to him, just as they are not to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Night Owl View Post
    It's patently absurd to compare a massacre to an incident in which only 1 person was murdered. Moreover, you can't possibly know that Nicholas Elliott intended to commit mass murder. That's speculation on your part and if you were honest you'd admit that.
    I am honest (far more than you), and I admit nothing of the sort. In fact, if you were honest, you'd admit that the presence of that much ammo demonstrates intent to shoot more than two people. Two hundred rounds of 9mm ammo weighs about 6-10 lbs, depending on how it's carried, but it's bulky and awkward, even if it's already in magazines. The cost for 200 rounds would be about $30-50 today, depending on type and manufacturer. So, you are claiming that a kid who planned to only shoot two people went to the trouble and expense to outfit himself with more than ten times as much ammo as his gun would hold in one clip, and then carry the extra weight and volume on his person with no intent to use it? Again, an honest man would admit that the kid clearly intended to do more than shoot two people, and that only the jamming of his gun prevented that (a fact that you have never mentioned once). Of course, an honest man would have admitted this long before now, so I know what I'm up against here.

    Besides, it turns out that he had more than just ammunition:

    http://articles.dailypress.com/1989-...able-classroom
    Teen Gets Life In Prison In Shooting
    Student Was `Time Bomb That Went Off': Judge
    December 13, 1989|By SEAN SOMERVILLE Staff Writer

    As the Bible students prayed, cowering from their gun-wielding schoolmate, the semi-automatic pistol in Nicholas Elliott's hand misfired.

    But for that misfire, the toll might have been higher in the shooting spree in which the teen-ager killed one teacher and wounded another a year ago at Atlantic Shores Christian School.

    "There's no question in my mind that I would be presiding over a mass murderer," said Circuit Judge Alan E. Rosenblatt, as he sentenced Elliott to life plus 114 years in prison Tuesday.

    "Mr. Elliott was a time bomb that went off," the judge said. "According to the court's opinion, he's a time bomb that could go off again."

    Before he was sentenced, Elliott, 17, said in a barely audible voice, "I'm sorry for what I did."

    "I'm sure you are, Mr. Elliott," replied Rosenblatt. "But it's too little, too late."

    Elliott, who pleaded guilty to 14 charges in October as part of a plea agreement in which five other charges were dropped, will become eligible for parole when he is 32 - in 15 years.

    In court Tuesday, the subdued Elliott stood in contrast to the teen-ager who thrashed in the back seat of a detective's car after his arrest on the morning of Dec. 16, 1988.

    On that day, Elliott, who is black, brought a Cobray M-11 semi-automatic pistol to school, apparently intending to kill Jacob Snipes, a white student with whom Elliott had exchanged racial slurs.

    A teacher, 41-year-old Karen Farley, apparently tried to stop him. He killed her and left her body lying in a portable classroom.

    Elliott entered a second portable classroom, pulled his gun from his bag and shot 37-year-old Sam Marino.

    "Now you," Elliott said to Susan Allen, another teacher in the classroom. She ran out the door and eluded Elliott by zigzagging through the school's courtyard.

    Elliott shot Marino again as Marino hung from a doorknob outside the mobile classroom, then broke into a crowded Bible class, where he confronted Snipes. "Jake, I'm going to kill you," he said.

    More than 40 students cowered and prayed in the back of the classroom.

    Elliott's gun jammed. Hutch Matteson, a Bible studies teacher, rushed him. The gun went off as he tackled Elliott.

    Three Molotov cocktails were found in Elliott's locker. The makings of a pipe bomb were in his bookbag.

    Elliott was sentenced to life for murdering Farley and 20 years for wounding Marino.

    He was also sentenced to:

    * 30 years for attempting to kill Allen, Matteson and Snipes.

    * 14 years for using a firearm in committing the crimes.
    Molotov cocktails and a pipe bomb. You ready to concede that this was an intended mass murder and Columbine-style attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Night Owl View Post
    Check your dates, dude. The Virginia Tech massacre took place two years after Van Jones claimed that only white suburban kids commit Columbine-style massacres. I expect a full retraction on that front.
    Fine. At that time, the VA Tech shooting had not yet happened and it would have had no bearing on Jones' comment. However, Nicholas Elliott's shooting spree had occurred long before then and was easily searchable. In fact, given that, in addition to his gun and ammunition, he had prepared Molotov cocktails and a pipe bomb, it can be said that Columbine was an Elliott-style rampage, albeit a more successful one.

    Van Jones made a false statement, publicly, and never bothered to check to see if it were true, because if he had, he'd have retracted it. You excoriated Beck for taking four months to correct an error. Jones has never backtracked from his statement, and it's unlikely that no one has ever gotten in his face about it. Care to judge him by the same standard that you apply to Beck?
    So, Nightie, are you going to admit that Jones made a false statement and that this shooter planned a mass murder, or will you disappear again?
    Of course, since you did disappear, we know the answer to that question, don't we?
    Quote Originally Posted by Apache View Post
    Can you give me the winning lottery numbers?

    Dude, he won't even be able to answer the previous question.
    Quote Originally Posted by fettpett View Post
    ooh....mr TNO is back....
    Let's see how long it takes him to go running off this time.
    --Odysseus
    Sic Hacer Pace, Para Bellum.

    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2. #2  
    Senior Member The Night Owl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,586
    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Look, everyone! Nightie's back! That's good, because the last time I posted a question that you couldn't answer, you disappeared for almost three months! Here it is again, so that we can take up where you left off:

    Hey! Nightie's back! I was beginning to think that you were never going to come back and admit that you were wrong about the whole Van Jones thing. Here's the last post on the subject, from that other thread:



    You don't trust me? Why is it that when Van Jones makes a sweeping statement about all white kids, you are prepared to contort yourself into various improbable shapes in order to deny that it is a racist sentiment, but when Glenn Beck makes a claim that Jones was a convicted felon, you assume nefarious motives?

    And once again, you lie. There has been a great deal written about Elliott (over 90,000 hits on Google), although the most interesting thing is how often his race isn't mentioned in the articles. And after shooting two teachers, he continued to engage targets until he was tackled. From the Atlantic:

    The Story of a Gun
    By ERIK LARSON
    On December 16, 1988, Nicholas Elliot, barely sixteen, walked into the Atlantic Shores Christian School, in Virginia Beach, Virginia, with a semi-automatic handgun hidden in his backpack. By midmorning a forty-one year-old teacher had been shot dead, and another teacher, struck by two nine-millimeter bullets, was extraordinarily lucky to be alive. Two other teachers narrowly escaped Nicholas Elliot's bullets.
    If Jones didn't know about Elliott, then he is ignorant and makes sweeping statements about racial behaviors without knowledge of the facts. If I were to make the claim that no Jew ever committed a terrorist act, I'd Google it before I said something that could be proven false. Jones didn't know because he didn't want to know. In his mind, whites are violent, toxic racists. Any facts to the contrary would not have been of interest to him, just as they are not to you.


    I am honest (far more than you), and I admit nothing of the sort. In fact, if you were honest, you'd admit that the presence of that much ammo demonstrates intent to shoot more than two people. Two hundred rounds of 9mm ammo weighs about 6-10 lbs, depending on how it's carried, but it's bulky and awkward, even if it's already in magazines. The cost for 200 rounds would be about $30-50 today, depending on type and manufacturer. So, you are claiming that a kid who planned to only shoot two people went to the trouble and expense to outfit himself with more than ten times as much ammo as his gun would hold in one clip, and then carry the extra weight and volume on his person with no intent to use it? Again, an honest man would admit that the kid clearly intended to do more than shoot two people, and that only the jamming of his gun prevented that (a fact that you have never mentioned once). Of course, an honest man would have admitted this long before now, so I know what I'm up against here.

    Besides, it turns out that he had more than just ammunition:

    http://articles.dailypress.com/1989-...able-classroom
    Teen Gets Life In Prison In Shooting
    Student Was `Time Bomb That Went Off': Judge
    December 13, 1989|By SEAN SOMERVILLE Staff Writer

    As the Bible students prayed, cowering from their gun-wielding schoolmate, the semi-automatic pistol in Nicholas Elliott's hand misfired.

    But for that misfire, the toll might have been higher in the shooting spree in which the teen-ager killed one teacher and wounded another a year ago at Atlantic Shores Christian School.

    "There's no question in my mind that I would be presiding over a mass murderer," said Circuit Judge Alan E. Rosenblatt, as he sentenced Elliott to life plus 114 years in prison Tuesday.

    "Mr. Elliott was a time bomb that went off," the judge said. "According to the court's opinion, he's a time bomb that could go off again."

    Before he was sentenced, Elliott, 17, said in a barely audible voice, "I'm sorry for what I did."

    "I'm sure you are, Mr. Elliott," replied Rosenblatt. "But it's too little, too late."

    Elliott, who pleaded guilty to 14 charges in October as part of a plea agreement in which five other charges were dropped, will become eligible for parole when he is 32 - in 15 years.

    In court Tuesday, the subdued Elliott stood in contrast to the teen-ager who thrashed in the back seat of a detective's car after his arrest on the morning of Dec. 16, 1988.

    On that day, Elliott, who is black, brought a Cobray M-11 semi-automatic pistol to school, apparently intending to kill Jacob Snipes, a white student with whom Elliott had exchanged racial slurs.

    A teacher, 41-year-old Karen Farley, apparently tried to stop him. He killed her and left her body lying in a portable classroom.

    Elliott entered a second portable classroom, pulled his gun from his bag and shot 37-year-old Sam Marino.

    "Now you," Elliott said to Susan Allen, another teacher in the classroom. She ran out the door and eluded Elliott by zigzagging through the school's courtyard.

    Elliott shot Marino again as Marino hung from a doorknob outside the mobile classroom, then broke into a crowded Bible class, where he confronted Snipes. "Jake, I'm going to kill you," he said.

    More than 40 students cowered and prayed in the back of the classroom.

    Elliott's gun jammed. Hutch Matteson, a Bible studies teacher, rushed him. The gun went off as he tackled Elliott.

    Three Molotov cocktails were found in Elliott's locker. The makings of a pipe bomb were in his bookbag.

    Elliott was sentenced to life for murdering Farley and 20 years for wounding Marino.

    He was also sentenced to:

    * 30 years for attempting to kill Allen, Matteson and Snipes.

    * 14 years for using a firearm in committing the crimes.
    Molotov cocktails and a pipe bomb. You ready to concede that this was an intended mass murder and Columbine-style attack?



    Fine. At that time, the VA Tech shooting had not yet happened and it would have had no bearing on Jones' comment. However, Nicholas Elliott's shooting spree had occurred long before then and was easily searchable. In fact, given that, in addition to his gun and ammunition, he had prepared Molotov cocktails and a pipe bomb, it can be said that Columbine was an Elliott-style rampage, albeit a more successful one.

    Van Jones made a false statement, publicly, and never bothered to check to see if it were true, because if he had, he'd have retracted it. You excoriated Beck for taking four months to correct an error. Jones has never backtracked from his statement, and it's unlikely that no one has ever gotten in his face about it. Care to judge him by the same standard that you apply to Beck?
    So, Nightie, are you going to admit that Jones made a false statement and that this shooter planned a mass murder, or will you disappear again?
    Of course, since you did disappear, we know the answer to that question, don't we?

    Dude, he won't even be able to answer the previous question.

    Let's see how long it takes him to go running off this time.
    OMG! You're still droning on about Van Jones? My position has not changed. A shooting which results in one person dying is not a massacre. An attempted massacre maybe... but not a massacre.
    Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
    Reply With Quote  
     

  3. #3  
    PORCUS MAXIMUS Rockntractor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    oklahoma
    Posts
    42,331
    Quote Originally Posted by The Night Owl View Post
    OMG! You're still droning on about Van Jones? My position has not changed. A shooting which results in one person dying is not a massacre. An attempted massacre maybe... but not a massacre.
    We waited all this time for that?
    The difference between pigs and people is that when they tell you you're cured it isn't a good thing.
    http://i.imgur.com/FHvkMSE.jpg
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #4  
    Senior Member The Night Owl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,586
    Quote Originally Posted by Rockntractor View Post
    We waited all this time for that?
    What were you waiting for? I stated my position on the Van Jones comment about school shootings months ago.
    Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #5  
    PORCUS MAXIMUS Rockntractor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    oklahoma
    Posts
    42,331
    Quote Originally Posted by The Night Owl View Post
    What were you waiting for? I stated my position on the Van Jones comment about school shootings months ago.
    I was waiting for an intelligent response.
    The difference between pigs and people is that when they tell you you're cured it isn't a good thing.
    http://i.imgur.com/FHvkMSE.jpg
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #6  
    Senior Member The Night Owl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,586
    Quote Originally Posted by Rockntractor View Post
    I was waiting for an intelligent response.
    Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #7  
    PORCUS MAXIMUS Rockntractor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    oklahoma
    Posts
    42,331
    Quote Originally Posted by The Night Owl View Post
    Hey, nobody else was.
    The difference between pigs and people is that when they tell you you're cured it isn't a good thing.
    http://i.imgur.com/FHvkMSE.jpg
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #8  
    Senior Member txradioguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Bavaria
    Posts
    7,986
    Quote Originally Posted by The Night Owl View Post
    OMG! You're still droning on about Van Jones? My position has not changed. A shooting which results in one person dying is not a massacre. An attempted massacre maybe... but not a massacre.
    Nope just waiting for you to slink back in and (hopefully) answer the question.

    But given your history Foul Owl...it's not likely.
    In Memory Of My Friend 1st Sgt. Tim Millsap A Co, 70th Eng. Bn. 3rd Bde 1st AD...K.I.A. 25 April 2005

    Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

    To Achieve Ordered Liberty You Must Have Moral Order As Well

    The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #9  
    Senior Member txradioguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Bavaria
    Posts
    7,986
    Quote Originally Posted by The Night Owl View Post
    What were you waiting for? I stated my position on the Van Jones comment about school shootings months ago.
    And you were wrong.

    Or did you hope we'd forget?
    In Memory Of My Friend 1st Sgt. Tim Millsap A Co, 70th Eng. Bn. 3rd Bde 1st AD...K.I.A. 25 April 2005

    Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

    To Achieve Ordered Liberty You Must Have Moral Order As Well

    The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #10  
    Power CUer NJCardFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    16,200
    Quote Originally Posted by The Night Owl View Post
    OMG! You're still droning on about Van Jones? My position has not changed. A shooting which results in one person dying is not a massacre. An attempted massacre maybe... but not a massacre.
    And the difference is....(besides the loss of life)? Question: Is not intent the same as carrying it out? And if not, why did those idiots who plotted to attack Fort Dix given life?
    The Obama Administration: Deny. Deflect. Blame.
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •