Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 31
  1. #11  
    Resident Grandpa marv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Shell Knob, MO
    Posts
    3,035
    The original purpose of the EC was to protect the less populous states from domination by the more populous states. Do we want the president to be elected by the likes of Kalifornia, Ill-i-noise, and Numb Yawk while ignoring "fly over" country?

    http://members.socket.net/~mcruzan/images/allen-west.jpg

    Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

    THIS POST WILL BE MONITORED BY THE NSA
     

  2. #12  
    Senior Member Arroyo_Doble's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Ft Worth
    Posts
    3,788
    Quote Originally Posted by marv View Post
    The original purpose of the EC was to protect the less populous states from domination by the more populous states. Do we want the president to be elected by the likes of Kalifornia, Ill-i-noise, and Numb Yawk while ignoring "fly over" country?
    I disagree. I think it was to insulate the election of the President from the transient political whims of the mob.
     

  3. #13  
    Best Bounty Hunter in the Forums fettpett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Southwest Michigan (in Exile)
    Posts
    8,757
    Quote Originally Posted by Arroyo_Doble View Post
    I disagree. I think it was to insulate the election of the President from the transient political whims of the mob.
    From Wiki:
    At the Constitutional Convention, the delegates used the Virginia Plan as the basis for discussions, as the Virginia delegation had proposed it first. The Virginia Plan called for the Executive to be elected by the Legislature.[6] Delegates from a majority of states agreed to this mode of election.[7] However, the Committee of Eleven, formed to work out various details including the mode of election of the President, recommended instead that the election be by a group of people apportioned among the states in the same numbers as their representatives in Congress (the formula for which had been resolved in lengthy debates resulting in the Connecticut Compromise and Three-fifths compromise), but chosen by each state "in such manner as its Legislature may direct." Committee member Gouverneur Morris explained the reasons for the change; among others, there were fears of "intrigue" if the President was chosen by a small group of men who met together regularly, as well as concerns for the independence of the President if he was elected by the Congress.[8] Some delegates, including James Wilson and James Madison, preferred popular election of the executive. Madison acknowledged that while a popular vote would be ideal, it would be difficult to get consensus on the proposal given the prevalence of slavery in the South:[9]

    "There was one difficulty however of a serious nature attending an immediate choice by the people. The right of suffrage was much more diffusive in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of Negroes. The substitution of electors obviated this difficulty and seemed on the whole to be liable to the fewest objections."

    The Convention approved the Committee's Electoral College proposal, with minor modifications, on September 6, 1787.[10] Delegates from the small states generally favored the Electoral College out of concern that the large states would otherwise control presidential elections.

    There you go, it was intended to protect the smaller states, plane and simple
    "Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings..." Patrick Henry
     

  4. #14  
    Senior Member txradioguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Bavaria
    Posts
    8,067
    Quote Originally Posted by Arroyo_Doble View Post
    I am not sure what you mean by "guidelines" but the Constitution is pretty clear that the Several States can choose their electors however they want.
    And I'm not sure what your confusion is about the difference between choosing electors....and just dumping a states EC votes to who ever gets the popular vote.

    What California is trying to do is chage the rules. This isn't a country based on direct democracy where the mob elects the leader. The EC is very much a part of what makes us a representative Republic.

    California wants to revert to mob rule.


    How is it doing that? If this were in place in 2004, California would have given its electors to George W. Bush.
    And in the case of the 1992 and '96 elections where no candidate got more than 50% of the popular vote?


    How is it rigging anything?
    That you don't see a problem with it is not surprising. Neither is the fact that this only comes up right after or just before a Dem is about to get his/her ass handed to them in an election.


    The only argument I see against this (other than the political argument within the States themselves) is that it is an unconstitutional alliance.
    It's very much unconstitutional. Not that something like that stops Libtards these days from changing the rules to try and help their side.
    In Memory Of My Friend 1st Sgt. Tim Millsap A Co, 70th Eng. Bn. 3rd Bde 1st AD...K.I.A. 25 April 2005

    Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

    To Achieve Ordered Liberty You Must Have Moral Order As Well

    The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.
     

  5. #15  
    Senior Member txradioguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Bavaria
    Posts
    8,067
    Quote Originally Posted by Arroyo_Doble View Post
    I disagree. I think it was to insulate the election of the President from the transient political whims of the mob.
    How about it keeps a state like California from negating the EC votes of a state with less people like say Rhode Island.

    It puts the smallest and the biggest of the states on an equal footing.
    In Memory Of My Friend 1st Sgt. Tim Millsap A Co, 70th Eng. Bn. 3rd Bde 1st AD...K.I.A. 25 April 2005

    Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

    To Achieve Ordered Liberty You Must Have Moral Order As Well

    The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.
     

  6. #16  
    Best Bounty Hunter in the Forums fettpett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Southwest Michigan (in Exile)
    Posts
    8,757
    here's more from the same article
    The constitutional theory behind the indirect election of both the President and Vice President of the United States is that while the Congress is popularly elected by the people,[26] the President and Vice President are elected to be executives of a federation of independent states.

    In the Federalist No. 39, James Madison argued that the Constitution was designed to be a mixture of state-based and population-based government. The Congress would have two houses: the state-based Senate and the population-based House of Representatives. Meanwhile, the President would be elected by a mixture of the two modes.[27]

    Additionally, in the Federalist No. 10, James Madison argued against "an interested and overbearing majority" and the "mischiefs of faction" in an electoral system. He defined a faction as "a number of citizens whether amounting to a majority or minority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adverse to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the community." Republican government (i.e., federalism, as opposed to direct democracy), with its varied distribution of voter rights and powers, would countervail against factions. Madison further postulated in the Federalist No. 10 that the greater the population and expanse of the Republic, the more difficulty factions would face in organizing due to such issues as sectionalism.[28]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elector...ited_States%29
    "Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings..." Patrick Henry
     

  7. #17  
    Best Bounty Hunter in the Forums fettpett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Southwest Michigan (in Exile)
    Posts
    8,757
    Now if they wanted to change, all they have to do is go to a proportional system like Maine and Nebraska.
    "Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings..." Patrick Henry
     

  8. #18  
    Senior Member txradioguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Bavaria
    Posts
    8,067
    James Madison argued against "an interested and overbearing majority" and the "mischiefs of faction" in an electoral system. He defined a faction as "a number of citizens whether amounting to a majority or minority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adverse to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the community."
    Describes the Libtards to a "T"
    In Memory Of My Friend 1st Sgt. Tim Millsap A Co, 70th Eng. Bn. 3rd Bde 1st AD...K.I.A. 25 April 2005

    Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

    To Achieve Ordered Liberty You Must Have Moral Order As Well

    The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.
     

  9. #19  
    Power CUer noonwitch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Warren, MI
    Posts
    12,863
    Quote Originally Posted by marv View Post
    The original purpose of the EC was to protect the less populous states from domination by the more populous states. Do we want the president to be elected by the likes of Kalifornia, Ill-i-noise, and Numb Yawk while ignoring "fly over" country?


    That's a good reason to keep it, and I'm an urban liberal who is not always pleased with the results.



    My slovenian cousin is from a country that has one basic ethnicity and a small population. Of course, they are going to use popular vote to determine a winner. This country is different by nature from a european country, where the modern borders appear to be drawn according to the languages and customs of the citizens, not as in the past, by who won the most recent war.
     

  10. #20  
    Senior Member DumbAss Tanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    2,842
    Quote Originally Posted by Arroyo_Doble View Post
    If a State can choose its electors as it sees fit, in this case based on the winner of the national popular vote, how is it "underhanded"?
    The fundamental problem with it, which lends the appearance of trickery to it, is that it awards the electoral votes not based on the will or vote of the people of California itself, but based on an external poll in which the California voters are a minority. It basically disenfranchises California voters, or enfranchises non-California voters to affect the California election (Whichever way you want to look at it), so it is indeed highly questionable legally. There also isn't a real perfect legal distinction between picking all the other States as opposed to some of the other States, like all the bordering States.
    Last edited by DumbAss Tanker; 08-09-2011 at 01:42 PM.
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •