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  1. #281  
    You can never leave hai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockntractor View Post
    Sometimes it is just better to stick with the topics you have fun with.
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  2. #282  
    Senior Member Zathras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    A long ranting diatribe with no examples given.
    As expected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Like I said, I don't like to play oppression hierarchy, and besides the blacks, indians, and mexicans are each firmly convinced of their own place at the top. That contest isn't doing anything for them given the public perception of those communities.
    For someone who doesn't like to play the oppression hierachy game, you sure do a fine job at it.

    I'm done with this crap Nova. Take your self righteous bullshit and stick it where the sun don't shine next to your head that's stuck squarely up your ass.
    Last edited by Zathras; 09-26-2011 at 04:27 PM.
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  3. #283  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    If the shoe fits wear it doesn't mean it's OK to throw it.
    Calling us bigots may make it easier for you to pretend that we have no arguments against your policies, but aside from flattering yourself, it really accomplishes nothing here except to demonstrate the poverty of your ideas and your lack of experience and understanding of the issues surrounding military service. Your accusations of religious-based bias against me are particularly amusing, and obviously desperate.

    Just an obvious example: You cite examples of namecalling which have not been seen in the force since before I was a private (two and a half decades ago), and then use that as an excuse to tar us as homophobes, but when you are informed that those comments are not permitted, you don't retract your first statement, but blithely continue to act as though it is still part of the motivation, and then demand to know if it was really necessary for new troops in basic training to be subjected to verbal hazing, and the explanation, while obvious to anyone who ever thought about the issue for more than a second, demonstrated that you have never considered it in any way. Your failure to think about one of the most basic and well-publicized aspects of military culture demonstrates a profound lack of interest in, and understanding of, that culture, and yet you presume to dictate how we should conduct ourselves in areas of which you are completely ignorant.

    In this, you are no different from Obama, who has never run so much as a lemonade stand, dictating the management of multi-billion dollar corporations, and like him, you will see your policy demands fail miserably..
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  4. #284  
    Resident Grandpa marv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    And a few posts later I wrote:

    Blacks and American Indians can waste their time fighting for the top spot in the oppression hierarchy, but it's simply a lie to say that gay people are not in that company.

    Gays have been slaves?

    Had fire hoses and dogs turned on them?

    Separate drinking fountains and bathrooms?

    Entire communities wiped out by men on horseback?

    Their churches burned and bombed?

    Seperate seating on busses?



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  5. #285  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post

    Just an obvious example: You cite examples of namecalling which have not been seen in the force since before I was a private (two and a half decades ago), and then use that as an excuse to tar us as homophobes, but when you are informed that those comments are not permitted, you don't retract your first statement, but blithely continue to act as though it is still part of the motivation
    I didn't retract because I didn't accuse or state as a fact. I speculated on a motivation, and when informed that the military had cleaned up its act in this regard, I said that I was glad to hear it. The fact that you haven't seen this in training for 25 years is good, but does it mean that the license to promote this mentality has been revoked? How could that be, when you maintain that the mentality it alive and well?

    Now here is an accusation if you would like one:

    Presumably a large portion of those you predict will find gay equality unbearable are under age thirty. Studies show that this age group is the least homophobic (for lack of a better word), presumably because they have been raised by parents who function in society, attend schools with discrimination/harassment policies, and haven't had the social instruction or re-enforcement for male pattern homophobia. They have grown up in the last decade or two when the youth subculture eschews "hatin'" and regards old fashioned fag bashing as idiocy.

    So where is the culture of resistance that you speak of coming from? If indeed the majority of these young men (it doesn't seem to apply to women as much) are as uncomfortable with gay people as you say, then how are they getting that way between the end of high school and today? Is this culture taught and promoted in the military? By whom? Is it mere concentrated in the military? By what function?

    I was surfing the web a few years back, and came across some graffiti in Brazil. Translated, it said: "Kill nwords, Jews, and queers." I was surprised. My first reaction was, "How come they always put these three together?" Because this is basically the mantra of the KKK in the US. But, in Brazil? Most of us aren't certain where to draw the line between white and black in Brazil, and who knew they even had enough Jews to have a hate group against them? But there it was, the same three in the list.

    But some here think that one (that they will admit to anyway) of those is to be expected in the military, but not the other two. I'm curious how they decide where to draw the line.
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  6. #286  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    I didn't retract because I didn't accuse or state as a fact. I speculated on a motivation, and when informed that the military had cleaned up its act in this regard, I said that I was glad to hear it. The fact that you haven't seen this in training for 25 years is good, but does it mean that the license to promote this mentality has been revoked? How could that be, when you maintain that the mentality it alive and well?
    There is a radical difference between not being comfortable showering with a gay person and shouting slurs in his face. To equate the two is like equating a paper cut with a sucking chest wound, and even that is a stretch, because the latter comparison is a matter of degree, while the former is not about prejudice, but issues of modesty and personal privacy. Again, a woman who objected to showering with men would not be told to "get over it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Now here is an accusation if you would like one:

    Presumably a large portion of those you predict will find gay equality unbearable are under age thirty. Studies show that this age group is the least homophobic (for lack of a better word), presumably because they have been raised by parents who function in society, attend schools with discrimination/harassment policies, and haven't had the social instruction or re-enforcement for male pattern homophobia. They have grown up in the last decade or two when the youth subculture eschews "hatin'" and regards old fashioned fag bashing as idiocy.

    So where is the culture of resistance that you speak of coming from? If indeed the majority of these young men (it doesn't seem to apply to women as much) are as uncomfortable with gay people as you say, then how are they getting that way between the end of high school and today? Is this culture taught and promoted in the military? By whom? Is it mere concentrated in the military? By what function?
    First, homophobic is a loaded term. Phobos is Greek for fear, so its literal translation is "fear of gays." The issue here is not fear, but disapproval, or concern that aspects of gay behavior are inappropriate in certain settings, such as a barracks, or, to put it another way, the recognition that gays are human beings who indulge in practices that most non-gays find unappealing. Those think that being gay is no big deal are most likely homoadiaforíc (Literally, Greek for "indifferent to gays"), as opposed to homophilic (Literally, Greek for "gay-loving") and those who disapprove of gay lifestyle conduct, or homoapodokimasíc (Greek for "disapproving of homosexuality"). You assume that the under thirty age group is not "homophobic", but that does not make them homophilic. It makes them, at best (to your mind) homoadiaforíc, but many are homoapodokimasíc, that is, they are tolerant, but not enamored, and perhaps uncomfortable in close quarters. The most homophilic and homoadiaforíc are not the ones most likely to join the military. Military service attracts people who are more likely to be politically and socially conservative, that is, people whom, while still tolerant of gays in other contexts, do not give unconditional approval to them, and are not comfortable in close quarters with homosexual conduct. They will be less likely to join a force that seeks to redefine itself as gay-friendly, and more likely to leave early as gay lifestyle issues are forced upon them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    I was surfing the web a few years back, and came across some graffiti in Brazil. Translated, it said: "Kill nwords, Jews, and queers." I was surprised. My first reaction was, "How come they always put these three together?" Because this is basically the mantra of the KKK in the US. But, in Brazil? Most of us aren't certain where to draw the line between white and black in Brazil, and who knew they even had enough Jews to have a hate group against them? But there it was, the same three in the list.

    But some here think that one (that they will admit to anyway) of those is to be expected in the military, but not the other two. I'm curious how they decide where to draw the line.
    There is a difference, as stated above, between hatred, disapproval, indifference and love. The graffiti that you described is hateful. It demands murder of Blacks, gays and Jews. It does not express mild disapproval or discomfort. It does not involve differences of opinion which may or may not be open to resolution. It does not allow for tolerance. It is a call to mass murder. You continually equate this kind of open hatred with those who simply believe that being gay is incompatible with Soldiering. You either cannot tell the difference between someone who hates you, and someone who may like or dislike you personally, but finds your sexual preference less than ideal, or you deliberately blur the distinction in order to simplify your arguments and make rebuttal more difficult. It certainly works, since half of every argument that I have to make is dedicated to my having to dispute your assertion that those who oppose the lifting of the ban are bigots. It wastes our time and puts us on the defensive, while you never respond to the points that we make, which are that you are, if not openly hostile to the armed forces (as many on your side of the debate are), you are at least indifferent to any negative effects of lifting the ban. When asked how DADT repeal will enhance readiness, you ignore the question. When asked how people who are not comfortable in intimate quarters with gay troops should react, your response is that they should "get over it", even though non-gays constitute 95% or more of the force. OTOH, when someone tells you to "get over" the ban, he's tarred as a bigot. You refuse to even acknowledge that there is a legitimate cause for concern on the part of the leadership, but demand that we embrace your lifestyle without so much as an acknowledgement of the costs that we will incur. Instead, you pretend that these costs are trivial or that they are non-existent, but our experience with sexual integration of the force shows that these costs are real, they are substantial, and we are still paying them. Until you admit that, then you cannot be taken seriously on this subject. You're just another activist, no different from an ivory-tower academic who is trying to run a corporation through regulation. Your ignorance will have real world consequences that we will have to deal with, and trying to make you see that is intensely frustrating.
    Last edited by Odysseus; 09-27-2011 at 01:17 PM.
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  7. #287  
    You can never leave hai's Avatar
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    Of course i find this forum more respectful on gay issues.

    http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum...d.php?t=465258
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  8. #288  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hai View Post
    Of course i find this forum more respectful on gay issues.

    http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum...d.php?t=465258
    Then feel free to go pluck yourself. :D
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  9. #289  
    Senior Member txradioguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hai View Post
    Of course i find this forum more respectful on gay issues.

    http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum...d.php?t=465258
    Good for you. Go there and don't come back.
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