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  1. #21  
    Our widdle friend. Wei Wu Wei's Avatar
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    I've already posted a site that you can go to for school statistics. Look at high and low performing schools and see what percentage of their students are classified as economically disadvantaged. The connection is undeniable.

    A 12 year old who doesn't have a secure place to sleep or a dinner to eat isn't concerned with showing their work on a math problem.

    A 13 year old who has to take care of their younger siblings every night of the week isn't going to get their homework done and isn't going to get enough sleep to perform well in class.

    Any young student who doesn't spend time with their parents because those parents work multiple jobs are going to manifest a range of academic and emotional issues.

    A student who gets evicted from their home and is forced to move a few times a year is never going to be able to do well in school when they change schools so frequently.

    The social and emotional issues that arise from living in economically challenging situations stay with these children. They are not adults, they are not able to compartmentalize their issues. As adults, if we are having a problem at home, we can still go to work and focus on the task at hand. Children are not able to do this.

    If you deny the connection between poverty and education, you are deliberately ignoring reality to make some stupid political point, and that directly hurts children.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Smith - Wealth of Nations
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
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  2. #22  
    Destroyer of Worlds Apocalypse's Avatar
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    Wei your pulling crap out of your ass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    I'm not opposed to reforming the system, and I think there how money is spent is more important than how much, but that doesn't mean education doesn't need more money.
    Throw more money at it is not the solution. You even agree we out spend every nation, but are calling for even more money.





    This is a golden question right here.

    The nations that outperform us have certain characteristics in common:

    1. They generally offer subsidized or partially subsidized access to universities or trade schools, so it is expected that every child is going to pursue higher education, so they are all prepared at that level.
    We already do that here in a way. Through government grants, subsidized tuition and so forth, yet it doesn't help with the k-12 has it.

    2. They have more progressive tax structures to fund education properly.
    They are not spending any where near what we do on education, so how is a more progressive tax structure going to fix our problem. Unless all your talking about is more taxes to throw more money at a problem that more money hasn't solved.

    and most importantly:

    3. They have incredibly low levels (compared to us) of inequality, high amounts of workers programs, and strong social safety nets, plus universal healthcare. The result of this is clear as day, the gap between the rich and the poor shrinks, and even for the economically disadvantaged in their countries, they are still able to get access to education and health care and unemployment benefits as much as anyone else.
    Oh BS on that.

    Singapore is ranked #1 in education in the world. It also has the greatest inequality in the world when it comes to the rich-poor gap among countries! Its larger then ours.

    In fact the top 10 nations, are within 4% or less of the inequality gap when it comes to the US with the exception of 2. Singapore which is greater then us, and Taiwan. Ranked #1 in education.
    Singapore - Amid a flurry of calls by Members of Parliament (MPs) for the Government to do more to help a variety of groups - from the elderly to the disabled, Acting Minister for Community Development, Youth and Sports Chan Chun Sing said yesterday that his ministry was prepared to "exercise greater flexibility ... and extend more support where needed".
    Yep, great social safety net there.

    Ranked #2 in education.
    To make matters worse, they can expect little in the way of unemployment or welfare benefits. In Japan, a country with little experience of widespread unemployment until recently, there is an inadequate safety net.
    Yep, great social safety net there.

    Ranked #4 in education.
    However, behind Hong Kong’s glitz and glamour lies one of the most grotesquely unequal societies in Asia and the world.

    And it goes on and on. So that part of how they are all more equality and better social makeup is BS.
    Rest In Peace America
    July 4, 1776 - January 20, 2009
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  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Wei your pulling crap out of your ass.

    Throw more money at it is not the solution. You even agree we out spend every nation, but are calling for even more money.





    This is a golden question right here.

    We already do that here in a way. Through government grants, subsidized tuition and so forth, yet it doesn't help with the k-12 has it.

    They are not spending any where near what we do on education, so how is a more progressive tax structure going to fix our problem. Unless all your talking about is more taxes to throw more money at a problem that more money hasn't solved.

    Oh BS on that.

    Singapore is ranked #1 in education in the world. It also has the greatest inequality in the world when it comes to the rich-poor gap among countries! Its larger then ours.

    In fact the top 10 nations, are within 4% or less of the inequality gap when it comes to the US with the exception of 2. Singapore which is greater then us, and Taiwan. Ranked #1 in education.

    Yep, great social safety net there.

    Ranked #2 in education.

    Yep, great social safety net there.

    Ranked #4 in education.



    And it goes on and on. So that part of how they are all more equality and better social makeup is BS.
    I think that education policy should be made at state and local level and that public schools should be funded at state and local level. Additionally, if the parents cannot or will not help their kids with their school work thenm Nanny is a poor substitute.

    A lot of kids are not college material and should learn a trade and then go to work. Sometimes a person gets a better education when he or she matures and has a genuine need of schooling. It may take longer but it can be done a little bit at a time. That is how I got my schooling.
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  4. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    I want the rich to pay for everything and anything, right down to my new shoes.
    Kidding.
    Free education should be a given (at least on up to high school graduation and maybe some tech training). How else will people become successful? You know, I could honestly meet conservatives *in the middle* if the most vocal and active ones would make an effort. But no, you want *everything.*. I'd be willing to compromise on healthcare and other issues if your side didn't want a winner takes all situation so badly. And no, that doesn't make OWS justified, although I do tend to think the ideology of both OWS and Tea Party are both extreme. They just both go too far.
    Nothing "free" is cherished. Our "free" education is a laughing stock because of liberal policies and failed, corrupt values forced into our children's minds. Kids are forced to attend who are merely disruptive and in many cases criminal in their behavior. Good kids who want to learn don't stand a chance in the "free" school circus that exists today.

    If school administrators were made to justify their salaries to STATE and LOCAL officials and not worry about Federal funding guidelines, it would begin to fix some of the decades of liberal induced problems.
    Then perhaps the schools could return to teaching instead of the PC, touchy-feely, revisionist history, and focus on non essential material crap that now pervades our schools.
    Education without values, as useful as it is, seems rather to make man a more clever devil.
    C. S. Lewis
    Do not ever say that the desire to "do good" by force is a good motive. Neither power-lust nor stupidity are good motives. (Are you listening Barry)?:mad:
    Ayn Rand
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  5. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    I want the rich to pay for everything and anything, right down to my new shoes.
    Free education should be a given (at least on up to high school graduation and maybe some tech training). How else will people become successful? You know, I could honestly meet conservatives *in the middle* if the most vocal and active ones would make an effort. But no, you want *everything.*. I'd be willing to compromise on healthcare and other issues if your side didn't want a winner takes all situation so badly. And no, that doesn't make OWS justified, although I do tend to think the ideology of both OWS and Tea Party are both extreme. They just both go too far.
    Education is essentialy free including highschool if you go to public schools. If I send my kids to private school, I pay for my kids tuition and for other kids in public school.

    Why should I pay a dime for someone to get tech training??

    Why don't you get a loan for 15k, get your welding certificate, then make 80k-100k per year??

    If your "degree" can return 5-6 times the total investment in 1 year, I do not need to give you a dime for your education.

    If your "degree" can return 1/2 the total investment in 1 year, find a better "degree."
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  6. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJCardFan View Post
    Then some of you libs need to explain why billions are thrown at the public school system every year and yet, kids are getting stupider. If there was ever a true definition of a boondoggle look no further than the education system.
    You need to read this:

    http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/

    You can download the e-book for free.

    Contents:
    A WHISTLEBLOWER'S ACCOUNT

    Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt, former Senior Policy Advisor in the U.S. Department of Education, blew the whistle in the `80s on government activities withheld from the public. Her inside knowledge will help you protect your children from controversial methods and programs. In this book you will discover:

    -how good teachers across America have been forced to use controversial, non-academic me
    -how "school choice" is being used to further dangerous reform goals, and how home schooling and private education are especially vulnerable.
    -how workforce training (school-to-work) is an essential part of an overall plan for a global economy, and how this plan will shortcircuit your child's future career plans and opportunities.
    -how the international, national, regional, state and local agendas for education reform are all interconnected and have been for decades.

    A CHRONOLOGICAL PAPER TRAIL

    the deliberate dumbing down of america is a chronological history of the past 100+ years of education reform. Each chapter takes a period of history and recounts the significant events, including important geopolitical and societal contextual information. Citations from government plans, policy documents, and key writings by leading reformers record the rise of the modern education reform movement. Americans of all ages will welcome this riveting expose of what really happened to what was once the finest education system in the world.

    Readers will appreciate the user-friendliness of this chronological history designed for the average reader not just the academician. This book will be used by citizens at public hearings, board meetings, or for easy presentation to elected officials.

    Publication of the deliberate dumbing down of america is certain to add fuel to the fire in this nation's phonics wars. Iserbyt provides documentation that Direct Instruction, the latest education reform fad in the classroom, is being institutionalized under the guise of "traditional" phonics thanks to the passage of the unconstitutional Reading Excellence Act of 1998.
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  7. #27  
    Grouchy Old Broad Kay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmPat View Post
    Nothing "free" is cherished.
    That is so very true.
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  8. #28  
    Power CUer noonwitch's Avatar
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    I don't believe in a free pass for people.


    I wish that things like health care and college educations were affordable for the middle class again, like they were when I was younger. My parents weren't rich, but college was affordable to the middle class. Even people who had less than us could afford it with loans. Paying back the loans wasn't so much of a problem, then, because the overall tuition costs were low.


    Health care is affordable for the healthy, the wealthy, and those who are lucky enough to have good jobs that provide insurance. Even then, a chronic condition can lead to thousands in medical bills that no one but the wealthy can afford to pay. It didn't use to be like that.
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