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  1. #21  
    Our widdle friend. Wei Wu Wei's Avatar
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    I might have to double check some research studies, but I don't think eating a halal turkey is going to sneaky-convert you to Islam.

    Just to be safe though you might want to create a circle of salt and chant or something
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Smith - Wealth of Nations
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
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  2. #22  
    PORCUS MAXIMUS Rockntractor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    I might have to double check some research studies, but I don't think eating a halal turkey is going to sneaky-convert you to Islam.

    Just to be safe though you might want to create a circle of salt and chant or something
    It has more to do with the inhumane method used for slaughter. Mock away, you are just as evil as they are.
    How is obama working out for you?
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  3. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    My local grocery store has a large Kosher section. This type of thing isn't something to get mad about, who cares?

    I can still get everything I want at the grocery store, so what's the problem?
    Here's the problem:

    There are two aspects to kosher/halal procedure: one is the mechanics of the kill and the other is the prayers required at the time of the kill. For some, the method of killing (for both kosher and halal procedures) seems more barbaric and hurtful to the animal than more modern methods, but that is not the only issue in this thread. A real sticking point is the prayer over the dying animal. In order to be halal, the name of God (Allah) must be pronounced over every dying animal.

    If you are a true Christian who believes in the power of prayer and the energetic force of properly performed ritual, then having a food item where that power has been applied by a rival religion with a rival god is a spiritual wrong, especially when that god has been invoked against you and your country in deadly attacks.

    If you're an atheist or agnostic, Butterball could pray over the turkey to any entity and it would be meaningless, since you would believe that no entity was around to hear the prayer and receive the energy of the ritual.

    Kosher food is acceptable to many Christians because it is the same God (Yahweh) to whom the prayers and ritual would be offered. Halal food is not because Yahweh is not identified with Allah.

    The woman who wrote the original article, Pamela Geller, is Jewish and her reasons may be the same as that of Christians, although one might also see her having antipathy towards Islamic nations that dispute Israel's right to exist. I am not sure where she is coming from; just offering that as a possibility.
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  4. #24  
    Our widdle friend. Wei Wu Wei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockntractor View Post
    It has more to do with the inhumane method used for slaughter. Mock away, you are just as evil as they are.

    When did you join PETA?

    I live in Texas and have grown up around hunters, I don't see anything inhumane about slitting an animals throat to kill it for food.

    Some of my vegetarian friends would disagree, but I've seen animals being shot and going minutes before they are put out of their misery, and they became some of the most tasty sausage I ever had.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Smith - Wealth of Nations
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
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  5. #25  
    Our widdle friend. Wei Wu Wei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    Here's the problem:

    There are two aspects to kosher/halal procedure: one is the mechanics of the kill and the other is the prayers required at the time of the kill. For some, the method of killing (for both kosher and halal procedures) seems more barbaric and hurtful to the animal than more modern methods, but that is not the only issue in this thread. A real sticking point is the prayer over the dying animal. In order to be halal, the name of God (Allah) must be pronounced over every dying animal.

    If you are a true Christian who believes in the power of prayer and the energetic force of properly performed ritual, then having a food item where that power has been applied by a rival religion with a rival god is a spiritual wrong, especially when that god has been invoked against you and your country in deadly attacks.

    If you're an atheist or agnostic, Butterball could pray over the turkey to any entity and it would be meaningless, since you would believe that no entity was around to hear the prayer and receive the energy of the ritual.

    Kosher food is acceptable to many Christians because it is the same God (Yahweh) to whom the prayers and ritual would be offered. Halal food is not because Yahweh is not identified with Allah.

    The woman who wrote the original article, Pamela Geller, is Jewish and her reasons may be the same as that of Christians, although one might also see her having antipathy towards Islamic nations that dispute Israel's right to exist. I am not sure where she is coming from; just offering that as a possibility.
    I see what you mean here, but the Quran references the God of Abraham, and I think Islamic prayers are directed at the God of Abraham.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Smith - Wealth of Nations
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
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  6. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    I see what you mean here, but the Quran references the God of Abraham, and I think Islamic prayers are directed at the God of Abraham.
    Just because a god is referenced has having the same pedigree as another does not mean that the god stands for the same personage, idea, or energy in different religions. The God of Abraham means different things to Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

    To Christians, the God of Abraham includes the person of Jesus Christ as part of the godhead, the energy, if you will. Islam, on the other hand, regards Jesus as another prophet, a failed one, who was eventually superceded by Mohammad. Because Islam acknowledges Jesus but denies his godhood, it is both denying the nature of the one true god (which includes a Jesus energy) and is worshiping a very different god, even though it has the same historical pedigree.

    You might argue that this is the identical situation for the Jews, who worship their God without a consubstantial Jesus, and you would be right. However, Jews and Christians share the same Old Testament and that identity of God the Father is acknowledged as the main god in both religions. In addition, Jews don't have the obvious scriptural references to Jesus that Islam does, demoting him to mere prophet status. (There apparently were or are references in the Talmud, but these are not widely known among Christians or secular Jews.) Finally, the current politics in Europe and the US allows for the glossing over of any small differences that may exist. Jews will not acknowledge or pray to Jesus, but Christians can join jews in a prayer to God the Father (Yahweh) and be pretty certain that it is the same basic deity.

    This may all seem like splitting hairs, but religion has always been about doing just that. Religion is one of the chief ways in which people identify themselves and differentiate themselves from others, so hair splitting becomes crucial when differences are so fine.
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  7. #27  
    PORCUS MAXIMUS Rockntractor's Avatar
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    There is no point trying to explain it to Wei, he is trolling for a reaction that will entertain him.
    How is obama working out for you?
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  8. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockntractor View Post
    I am getting really tired of this crap!
    To be fair, most products respect Kosher methods when preparing their products. That P in a circle on a package means it's Kosher. So is anything with these symbols on it:
    The Obama Administration: Deny. Deflect. Blame.
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  9. #29  
    Our widdle friend. Wei Wu Wei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    Just because a god is referenced has having the same pedigree as another does not mean that the god stands for the same personage, idea, or energy in different religions. The God of Abraham means different things to Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

    To Christians, the God of Abraham includes the person of Jesus Christ as part of the godhead, the energy, if you will. Islam, on the other hand, regards Jesus as another prophet, a failed one, who was eventually superceded by Mohammad. Because Islam acknowledges Jesus but denies his godhood, it is both denying the nature of the one true god (which includes a Jesus energy) and is worshiping a very different god, even though it has the same historical pedigree.

    You might argue that this is the identical situation for the Jews, who worship their God without a consubstantial Jesus, and you would be right. However, Jews and Christians share the same Old Testament and that identity of God the Father is acknowledged as the main god in both religions. In addition, Jews don't have the obvious scriptural references to Jesus that Islam does, demoting him to mere prophet status. (There apparently were or are references in the Talmud, but these are not widely known among Christians or secular Jews.) Finally, the current politics in Europe and the US allows for the glossing over of any small differences that may exist. Jews will not acknowledge or pray to Jesus, but Christians can join jews in a prayer to God the Father (Yahweh) and be pretty certain that it is the same basic deity.

    This may all seem like splitting hairs, but religion has always been about doing just that. Religion is one of the chief ways in which people identify themselves and differentiate themselves from others, so hair splitting becomes crucial when differences are so fine.
    Right this makes sense but when it comes to a turkey being prayed over to the "wrong God", how much does it matter?

    It's not like they are praying to Thor, they are praying to the God of Abraham it's just that (to a Christian) they are doing it improperly by not recognizing that same God as being personified through Christ.

    I can see the argument that they are not properly praying or they are praying to an improper interpretation of the same God, but I don't see how that equates to praying to a totally different, separately existing God who will curse the turkey.

    You're right, it is splitting hairs, and I know that goes on a lot in religious discussions, but how much does that matter here? If a Muslim offers a prayer for your safety or good blessing, should you be angry or run away because your God will be angered?

    This just isn't how I have come to understand God, but I know different people will have different ideas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Smith - Wealth of Nations
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
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  10. #30  
    Senior Member DumbAss Tanker's Avatar
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    Jew-haters post almost exactly the same kind of stuff about kosher slaughtering, personally I don't give a rat's ass about either one, as long as the meat isn't screwed up. They can chase the fuckers down with chainsaws, as long as they aim well and don't mess up the white meat.

    I kinda like the bacon-wrapping ideas, for reasons totally unrelated to tolerating Islam.
    Last edited by DumbAss Tanker; 11-23-2011 at 02:22 PM.
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