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  1. #21  
    Senior Member Zathras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    It ended the war swiftly and saved American lives, but it also opened up a can of worms and entered us into an era of nuclear paranoia. It also killed hundreds of thousands of civilians.

    It may be too simplistic to label it as "good" or "bad". These things tend to have many consequences.
    The fire bombings of Tokyo caused more casualties than the A-Bombs. Also the bombs saved more Japanese civilian lives than they killed by bringing the end of the war to a swift end, making the need for an invasion of the Japanese home islands unnecessary which would have ended up killing millions of civilians if they had been carried out.
    Last edited by Zathras; 12-12-2011 at 01:46 PM.
    Solve a man's problem with violence and help him for a day. Teach a man how to solve his problems with violence, help him for a lifetime - Belkar Bitterleaf
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  2. #22  
    Our widdle friend. Wei Wu Wei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txradioguy View Post
    You mean like the Taliban did to us on 9/11?
    Yeah sort of like that. How on earth is that an argument for it?

    Are you saying we should kill civilians because terrorists kill civilians? We should not be trying to be just like them, that's insane.

    What makes someone a terrorist? The color of their skin? Their religion? Something in their DNA? or is it their actions?

    If you think we should stoop to their level, and engage in killing civilians in countries we aren't at war with, because that's what they do, then it almost sounds like you are suggesting we should out-terrorist them. If they do a terrorist-thing, we should do it harder!

    If that's the case, what the hell are we fighting for or against?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Smith - Wealth of Nations
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  3. #23  
    Senior Member Chuck58's Avatar
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    Seems to me that we go to the extreme not to kill civilians in these current wars. Accidents happen because nothing is perfect.

    In regular wars, against nations, the civilians are as much the enemy as the soldier in the field. Those civilians make bullets, build tanks, planes, etc and grow food. They support and contribute to the war effort, and should be fair game.
    The poster formerly known as chuck58 on the old board.
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  4. #24  
    Zoomie djones520's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    Yeah sort of like that. How on earth is that an argument for it?

    Are you saying we should kill civilians because terrorists kill civilians? We should not be trying to be just like them, that's insane.

    What makes someone a terrorist? The color of their skin? Their religion? Something in their DNA? or is it their actions?

    If you think we should stoop to their level, and engage in killing civilians in countries we aren't at war with, because that's what they do, then it almost sounds like you are suggesting we should out-terrorist them. If they do a terrorist-thing, we should do it harder!

    If that's the case, what the hell are we fighting for or against?
    You seem to think that our government is advocating the death of civilians who are not illegal combatants. Accidents happen in war. It can't be helped, there will never be a perfect system that does not involve collateral damage.

    The simple fact is that the efforts we take to mitigate the number of innocent casualties goes beyond anything anyone has ever tried in the past. We view a single wrongful death as one to many, and we take every step possible to avoid it, including putting our own lives in extra danger because of it.

    War is hell. Mistakes are made. Especially when time sensitive targets are in play. You want to bemoan dead civilians, put in on the ones who are putting them in harms way. The ones who hide among them, who use them as shields. They are the ones you should be waving your moral stick at, asshole.
    In most sports, cold-cocking an opposing player repeatedly in the face with a series of gigantic Slovakian uppercuts would get you a multi-game suspension without pay.

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  5. #25  
    Senior Member txradioguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djones520 View Post
    You seem to think that our government is advocating the death of civilians who are not illegal combatants. Accidents happen in war. It can't be helped, there will never be a perfect system that does not involve collateral damage.
    And the leftist idiots like Wee Wee will tell you that the fact there will never be a perfect system is why we should dismantle our "war machine" right now and never engage in hostile conflict ever again.
    In Memory Of My Friend 1st Sgt. Tim Millsap A Co, 70th Eng. Bn. 3rd Bde 1st AD...K.I.A. 25 April 2005

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    The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.
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  6. #26  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    Why is everyone so afraid of other countries using drones? After all, drones are a perfectly legitimate form of warfare and they are very precise and they fit perfectly into combat situations.
    We're more afraid of other countries hacking the signals to our drones and either negating them or using them against us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    Iran isn't fighting any big wars with anyone, neither is China. hmmmmm?
    In 1933, Germany wasn't fighting any big wars with anyone, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    or maybe building flying death-robots and sending them all over the world to assassinate people in countries we are not at war with just because we can wasn't the best idea. Some people were against drones along time ago, saying they were opening up a can of worms, but I guess they were all just libtard moonbats.
    First, the drones aren't "robots", in the sense that they don't have their own onboard intelligence. They are remotely operated by human beings, which means that they are not simply robotic killing machines. Second, we use them because we can keep them aloft for longer hours (simply switching the controllers permits that without having to land the vehicle) and because they can go places that Soldiers cannot go without assuming greater risk. I assume that you don't have a problem with saving American lives, right? Finally, all countries assassinate their enemies. It's part of warfare. If an enemy combatant takes refuge in a neutral nation, then it is the obligation of the neutral power to ensure that they do not conduct combat operations from their territory. If they don't do that, or cannot do it, then they abrogate their neutrality and any nation can engage targets that are engaged in combat operations within their borders. Yemen claims neutrality, but cannot control the activities of al Qaeda within its borders. Pakistan claims to be an ally, but harbors enemy combatants. Iran openly calls itself our enemy and has declared war on us. In each case, the laws of warfare permit us to act as we have.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    It ended the war swiftly and saved American lives, but it also opened up a can of worms and entered us into an era of nuclear paranoia. It also killed hundreds of thousands of civilians.

    It may be too simplistic to label it as "good" or "bad". These things tend to have many consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rockntractor View Post
    Is the life of a soldier worth less than a civilian?
    To Wei, it depends on who the Soldier or civilian is. For example, he has no problem with Hamas using Arab civilians as shields when they launch rockets at Israel, and his concern for Israeli civilians is somewhere between slim and none.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    Yeah sort of like that. How on earth is that an argument for it?

    Are you saying we should kill civilians because terrorists kill civilians? We should not be trying to be just like them, that's insane.

    What makes someone a terrorist? The color of their skin? Their religion? Something in their DNA? or is it their actions?

    If you think we should stoop to their level, and engage in killing civilians in countries we aren't at war with, because that's what they do, then it almost sounds like you are suggesting we should out-terrorist them. If they do a terrorist-thing, we should do it harder!

    If that's the case, what the hell are we fighting for or against?
    Al Qaeda deliberately targeted civilians. They used civilian aircraft as weapons and attacked a civilian trade center. By every law of warfare, these are blatantly illegal acts.

    The atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, OTOH, targeted industrial centers that were critical to Japan's war effort, even though there were large numbers of civilians present. In fact, it is the obligation of combatant powers to separate military and civilian facilities in order to reduce the risk of collateral damage, but the Japanese deliberately sited their munitions plants in major population centers. Also, the laws that protect civilians, the Geneva Conventions, do not apply to non-signatory powers, and Japan was not a signatory (in fact, the Japanese revelled in violating the terms of the conventions whenever they could). Japan's prior conduct also exposed them to retaliation, in that Japan had previously bombed civilians in China and the Philippines, and had abrogated the protections of the Geneva Conventions by doing so. The bombing also resulted in millions of saved Japanese lives, as the invasion of the home islands would have incurred horrific casualties, as Okinawa demonstrated. In short, it was legal and moral to do so.
    --Odysseus
    Sic Hacer Pace, Para Bellum.

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  7. #27  
    US asks Iran to return captured drone

    President Barack Obama has said the US government has requested that Tehran return the surveillance drone captured by Iran's military earlier this month.

    Mr Obama said he would not comment on classified intelligence matters, but confirmed: "We have asked for it back. We'll see how the Iranians respond."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16150384
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  8. #28  
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    There is a reason the drone is seen with flags hiding the undercarriage. I am not sure what the reason is, but there is a reason; that is not an accident.

    In reading about the RQ-170 I learned that it is programmed to fly level if contact is lost. Don't know if it attempts to stay in the same area or tries to go home, but it does fly level. And that's how it hit the ground. Flying level.

    So I'm suspecting the sensors where damaged - perhaps badly damaged - when it 'landed'. And I'm suspecting that the Iranians just lucked out and witnessed the landing. I don't believe they tracked it somehow. I know the Pakistanis couldn't detect it because it was used in the Bin Laden raid and evidently was never challenged.

    Information or thoughts, anyone?
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  9. #29  
    Zoomie djones520's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck View Post
    There is a reason the drone is seen with flags hiding the undercarriage. I am not sure what the reason is, but there is a reason; that is not an accident.

    In reading about the RQ-170 I learned that it is programmed to fly level if contact is lost. Don't know if it attempts to stay in the same area or tries to go home, but it does fly level. And that's how it hit the ground. Flying level.

    So I'm suspecting the sensors where damaged - perhaps badly damaged - when it 'landed'. And I'm suspecting that the Iranians just lucked out and witnessed the landing. I don't believe they tracked it somehow. I know the Pakistanis couldn't detect it because it was used in the Bin Laden raid and evidently was never challenged.

    Information or thoughts, anyone?
    I'm not 100% on drones, but I do believe that Iran is probably one of the most technilogically advanced nations in that part of the world. If anyone there had the capabilities, it would be them.
    In most sports, cold-cocking an opposing player repeatedly in the face with a series of gigantic Slovakian uppercuts would get you a multi-game suspension without pay.

    In hockey, it means you have to sit in the penalty box for five minutes.
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  10. #30  
    Grouchy Old Broad Kay's Avatar
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    Maybe we are using it as a Trojan horse and let them have it on purpose as part of a larger plan.
    That's what I'd like to hope.

    Or not, and our POTUS is just purposely letting them take their time looking it over like he did
    in Pok-E-ston with the helicopter tail section. I would think these things could be destroyed from
    from the air in a flash before anyone could get their hand on them. I would hope that our drones
    have a self destruct feature that could be set off remotely.

    In other news (and needs its own thread) Lebannon has outted all of our CIA agents in their country.
    There sure is a lot of our country's secret and classified shit being passed around the world these
    days. Kinda makes one wonder if we are just getting careless or if we have a traitor in high places.
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