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  1. #11  
    Politically tired. Lanie's Avatar
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    Okay, I'm finding that individuals from Iran (who worked with government) are responsible, particularly one person. I'm not finding a whole lot of evidence that the Iranian government itself is responsible although I'm open minded.
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  2. #12  
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    "The streets will run red with the blood....Your mustaches will fall from your faces....The dogs will piss on the bodies of....Your women will wail in mourning for the loss of...Your daughters will be raped by ........The Zionists will be wiped from the face...."

    Seriously, now. Rhetoric aside. Do sane people talk like that? I don't even worry about people who talk like that.

    They know they can get everyone all exited by "practicing closing the Straight of Hormuz" and "preparing to launch long range missiles" and so forth.
    Did Iran cause 9/11? I dunno. Don't much care. Damn near all of the perpetrators are dead now and our security is much improved over where it was on 9/10. And even if there was no improvement in official security, Iranians would not be able to pull off a 9/11 style attack because all Americans are watching for that kind of stuff.

    I kind of like the way we are currently waging war with Iran. We fly over their country any time we want, bomb their top level scientists, hack into their centrifuges, and God knows what all. Aerial photos show that 6 warehouses have been leveled....dunno who did it or why; they're just gone. Gee, whattamystery

    My own feeling is that Iran is irrelevant, but not to the degree that we can turn our back. They declared war, they're losing, and there is nothing they can do about it.
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  3. #13  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tecate View Post
    You're starting to sound like Sonnabend who played the anti-semite card on all things involving the central banking system of the world. No facts are allowed, just "you hate Joooooze!" It doesn't work.
    What facts? The cartoon that accuses Jews of orchestrating a war on Iran? That's not a fact, it's propaganda. Most American Jews opposed the various Middle East wars. They're Democrats, remember? They voted against Bush in far greater numbers than for him, despite the fact that he was pro-Israel. Obama got an overwhelming majority of Jewish voters, and still has higher approval ratings among Jews than among any other group except blacks. The facts directly contradict the agitprop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tecate View Post
    Iran is the complete opposite of Alqaeda. In fact, Iran HATES Alqaeda. This story is complete bullshit. How many other nations are we going to blame for 9/11? How many nations are we going attack in retaliation for 9/11?
    Iran and al Qaeda share common interests, namely the defeat of the United States, which both see as an impediment to their goal of a global caliphate. The fact that al Qaeda is Sunni while Iran is Shia only means that after they have defeated other infidels, they'll turn their weapons on each other, but until then, your enemy's enemy is your ally. Hamas, BTW, is just as much a Sunni terror group as al Qaeda, but notice that Iran has been arming them to the teeth and financing their jihad. The Iranians provided safe have to Sunni terrorists throughout the last forty years, as long as they have been willing to focus their enmity on the US and Israel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    Are you suggesting than criticizing the policies of the nation of Israel is the same as anti-semitism?
    Sounds a lot like the claim that criticizing President Obama is the same as racism.
    No, I have never said that, and never will. There is a difference between criticizing Israeli policies and hatred of Israel. Writing in “Progressive” Jewish Thought and the New Anti-Semitism, Alvin H. Rosenfeld defined the difference between antisemitism and legitimate criticism:

    Questioning Israel’s Essence, Not Israeli Policies Israel’s policy of encouraging Jewish settlement in Gaza (which it abandoned in 2005) and the West Bank has long been a flash point of dispute, and its sometimes harsh treatment of Palestinian Arabs living in those areas has also drawn a great deal of negative attention. Criticizing such policies and actions is, in itself, not antiSemitic. To call Israel a Nazi state, however, as is commonly done today, or to accuse it of fostering South African-style apartheid rule
    or engaging in ethnic cleansing or wholesale genocide goes well beyond legitimate criticism.
    Apart from the United States, to which it is almost always linked by its enemies, no country on earth is as vilified as the Jewish state. Moreover, those who denounce it as an outlaw or pariah nation are found on both the left and the right, among the educated elites as well as the uneducated classes, and among Christians as well as Muslims.

    In some quarters, the challenge is not to Israel’s policies, but to its legitimacy and right to an ongoing future. Thus, the argument leveled by Israel’s fiercest critics is often no longer about 1967 and the country’s territorial expansion following its military victory during the Six-Day War, but about 1948 and the alleged “crime,” or “original sin,” of its very establishment. The debate, in other words, is less about the country’s borders and more about its origins and essence. One of the things that is new and deeply disturbing about the new anti-Semitism, therefore, is precisely this: the singling out of the Jewish state, and the Jewish state alone, as a political entity unworthy of a secure and sovereign existence. As Jacqueline Rose, the author of The Question of Zion (Princeton University Press, 2005), puts it, “the soul of the nation was forfeit from the day of its creation.”
    In other words, singling out Israel for a double standard which no nation can meet, accusing American Jews of disloyalty to America and sabotaging American interests, ignoring or justifying the acts of terror against innocent Israelis while exaggerating the defensive actions taken by Israel, blaming Israel for the lack of peace in the Arab/Muslim world and attacking every policy of Israel's, not because they are right or wrong on their own merits, but because they are the policies of a Jewish state, constitutes antisemitism.
    --Odysseus
    Sic Hacer Pace, Para Bellum.

    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
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  4. #14  
    Senior Member Tecate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    What facts? The cartoon that accuses Jews of orchestrating a war on Iran? That's not a fact, it's propaganda. Most American Jews opposed the various Middle East wars. They're Democrats, remember? They voted against Bush in far greater numbers than for him, despite the fact that he was pro-Israel. Obama got an overwhelming majority of Jewish voters, and still has higher approval ratings among Jews than among any other group except blacks. The facts directly contradict the agitprop.
    There's one other small country listed before Israel in the cartoon that you forgot to mention...

    Israel has the third largest military in the world, including nuclear weapons. I do not live in Israel, I live in the USA.

    Iran and al Qaeda share common interests, namely the defeat of the United States, which both see as an impediment to their goal of a global caliphate. The fact that al Qaeda is Sunni while Iran is Shia only means that after they have defeated other infidels, they'll turn their weapons on each other, but until then, your enemy's enemy is your ally. Hamas, BTW, is just as much a Sunni terror group as al Qaeda, but notice that Iran has been arming them to the teeth and financing their jihad. The Iranians provided safe have to Sunni terrorists throughout the last forty years, as long as they have been willing to focus their enmity on the US and Israel.
    We both know that's never going to happen in this lifetime. This is all the same stuff we heard as justification for previous wars. Where exactly does it end?
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  5. #15  
    PORCUS MAXIMUS Rockntractor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    Okay, I'm finding that individuals from Iran (who worked with government) are responsible, particularly one person. I'm not finding a whole lot of evidence that the Iranian government itself is responsible although I'm open minded.
    Come on Lanie, do you realize how dumb this looks!:o
    How is obama working out for you?
    http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv230/upyourstruly/5d569df9-186a-477b-a665-3ea8a8b9b655_zpse9003e54.jpg
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  6. #16  
    Our widdle friend. Wei Wu Wei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    What facts? The cartoon that accuses Jews of orchestrating a war on Iran? That's not a fact, it's propaganda. Most American Jews opposed the various Middle East wars. They're Democrats, remember? They voted against Bush in far greater numbers than for him, despite the fact that he was pro-Israel. Obama got an overwhelming majority of Jewish voters, and still has higher approval ratings among Jews than among any other group except blacks. The facts directly contradict the agitprop.
    Except that the cartoon isn't talking about Jews. It's talking about the nation/government of Israel.

    American Liberal Jewish voters are not mentioned at all. Why do you feel the need to lump them in with the government of Israel? The cartoon didn't do that, you're arguing with a strawman.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Smith - Wealth of Nations
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
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  7. #17  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tecate View Post
    There's one other small country listed before Israel in the cartoon that you forgot to mention...
    I didn't forget. US/Israel Hawks = Jews.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tecate View Post
    Israel has the third largest military in the world, including nuclear weapons.
    Even if this were true, what does it have to do with Iran's complicity or lack of same in the 9/11 attacks?
    And, it isn't true. In terms of manpower, Israel is way down on the list.
    State Total Active

    Russian Federation 21,476,000 1,027,000
    Democratic People's Republic of Korea 9,495,000 1,106,000
    Republic of Korea 8,691,500 687,000
    Vietnam 5,495,000 455,000
    India 4,768,407 1,325,000
    People's Republic of China 4,585,000 2,285,000
    Iran 3,833,000 523,000
    United States of America[179][180] 2,937,899 1,468,364
    Republic of China 1,964,000 290,000
    Brazil 1,667,710 327,710
    Pakistan 1,434,000 617,000
    Egypt 1,344,500 468,500
    Cuba 1,234,500 49,000
    Ukraine 1,214,825 129,925
    Turkey 1,041,500 510,600
    Indonesia 982,000 302,000
    Israel 749,550 176,500
    Quote Originally Posted by Tecate View Post
    I do not live in Israel, I live in the USA.
    Congratulations. You know where you live. Now try to stay on topic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tecate View Post
    We both know that's never going to happen in this lifetime. This is all the same stuff we heard as justification for previous wars. Where exactly does it end?
    What isn't going to happen? The defeat of the United States? Our departure from the Middle East? A massive drawdown of our military forces? The rise of Islamist governments in Egypt, Libya, Turkey, Syria, Tunisia, Afghanistan or Iraq? What you don't seem to get is that they are winning by every objective measure. We're withdrawing our forces from two countries that we had previously fought hard to remove from the roster of enemy states. Afghanistan is already making overtures to Pakistan, while Iraq is trying desperately to avoid being carved up by the surrounding powers, and both nations are well on the way to theocratic rule. When that happens, they will join the "Arab Spring" Anschluss of Islamist states run by the Muslim Brotherhood, which, BTW, is the parent organization of Hamas and they are the folks who gave us al Qaeda (Ayman al Zawahiri, Bin Laden's deputy in al Qaeda, came out of the Muslim Brotherhood). Hamas, which is as fanatically Sunni as it gets, is backed by Iran. Meanwhile, our government is mounting up debt on useless programs and cutting the military, which, unlike Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Obamacare, Food Stamps, Welfare and a host of other programs, is the only thing that it's supposed to be maintaining under the Constitution. We're withdrawing form the world as it's getting more dangerous.

    As for where it ends, it depends on whose side you're on. For us, it ends when the Muslims figure out that they don't want to mess with us, which hasn't happened yet. For them, it ends with us praying five times a day to Mecca and my daughters ensconced in some lowlife imam's harem. I know which side of that equation that I'd like to be on. How about you?
    --Odysseus
    Sic Hacer Pace, Para Bellum.

    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
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  8. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    I don't know about whether Iran is responsible for 911. Personally, this is the first I've heard about it and I want to find out more.

    I am going to say that Iran's leader is crazy, really crazy. He's threatened to wipe Israel off the planet before. I think he's hinted at the idea of attacking us. I do think this guy has it in him to really attack a country if given the chance. I think I would support military action over there IF we can ensure we get all the nuclear areas. I'm sort of afraid of attacking and not getting our target.
    Ahmadinejad is a puppet of the mullahs. Or more specifically, he is a puppet of "supreme leader" Khamenei . Ahmadinejad is not an elected leader in the sense that most everyone understands an elected leader to be. The mullahs decide who will be allowed to be presidential candidates. You don't get to run for president just because you want to. You must have the favor of the mullahs to get on the ballot.

    A while back, during obama's presidency, the Iranian people were uprising. Unfortunately, obama gave them no support and they were snuffed out. But I'm sure somehow that was Bush's fault.
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  9. #19  
    Politically tired. Lanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockntractor View Post
    Come on Lanie, do you realize how dumb this looks!:o
    I'm a prove it type of person. We have corrupt people in every government, but they don't necessarily represent the entire government.

    FWIW, I do think it's a strong possibility. I just would like to be more certain before we go bombing Iran.
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  10. #20  
    Politically tired. Lanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Common Sense View Post
    Ahmadinejad is a puppet of the mullahs. Or more specifically, he is a puppet of "supreme leader" Khamenei . Ahmadinejad is not an elected leader in the sense that most everyone understands an elected leader to be. The mullahs decide who will be allowed to be presidential candidates. You don't get to run for president just because you want to. You must have the favor of the mullahs to get on the ballot.

    A while back, during obama's presidency, the Iranian people were uprising. Unfortunately, obama gave them no support and they were snuffed out. But I'm sure somehow that was Bush's fault.
    I agree that Obama should have given them support.

    Do you think Bush would have?
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