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  1. #1 Gay celebrity Dan Savage on marriage: No monogamy if you don't like it. 
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    Now that gays are getting the legal right to marry, Savage would like to trash the concept of monogamy--for straights.

    [QUOTE]
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/03/ma...pagewanted=all

    ...Savage believes monogamy is right for many couples. But he believes that our discourse about it, and about sexuality more generally, is dishonest. Some people need more than one partner, he writes, just as some people need flirting, others need to be whipped, others need lovers of both sexes. We can’t help our urges, and we should not lie to our partners about them. In some marriages, talking honestly about our needs will forestall or obviate affairs; in other marriages, the conversation may lead to an affair, but with permission. In both cases, honesty is the best policy.

    “I acknowledge the advantages of monogamy,” Savage told me, “when it comes to sexual safety, infections, emotional safety, paternity assurances. But people in monogamous relationships have to be willing to meet me a quarter of the way and acknowledge the drawbacks of monogamy around boredom, despair, lack of variety, sexual death and being taken for granted.”

    The view that we need a little less fidelity in marriages is dangerous for a gay-marriage advocate to hold. It feeds into the stereotype of gay men as compulsively promiscuous, and it gives ammunition to all the forces, religious and otherwise, who say that gay families will never be real families and that we had better stop them before they ruin what is left of marriage. But Savage says a more flexible attitude within marriage may be just what the straight community needs. Treating monogamy, rather than honesty or joy or humor, as the main indicator of a successful marriage gives people unrealistic expectations of themselves and their partners. And that, Savage says, destroys more families than it saves...

    ....“The mistake that straight people made,” Savage told me, “was imposing the monogamous expectation on men. Men were never expected to be monogamous. Men had concubines, mistresses and access to prostitutes, until everybody decided marriage had to be egalitar*ian and fairsey.” In the feminist revolution, rather than extending to women “the same latitude and license and pressure-release valve that men had always enjoyed,” we extended to men the confines women had always endured. “And it’s been a disaster for marriage.”

    In their own marriage, Savage and Miller practice being what he calls “monogamish,” allowing occasional infidelities, which they are honest about. Miller was initially opposed to the idea. “You assume as a younger person that all relationships are monogamous and between two people, that love means nothing can come between you,” said Miller, who met Savage at a club in 1995, when he was 23 and Savage was 30. “Dan has taught me to be more realistic about that kind of stuff.

    “It was four or five years before it came up,” Miller said. “It’s not about having three-ways with somebody or having an open relationship. It is just sort of like, Dan has always said if you have different tastes, you have to be good, giving and game, and if you are not G.G.G. for those tastes, then you have to give your partner the out. It took me a while to get down with that.” When I asked Savage how many extramarital encounters there have been, he laughed shyly. “Double digits?” I asked. He said he wasn’t sure; later he and Miller counted, and he reported back that the number was nine. “And far from it being a destabilizing force in our relationship, it’s been a stabilizing force. It may be why we’re still together.”...
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  2. #2  
    Senior Member Apache's Avatar
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    Gee, NEVER saw this coming along...


    Nope, sure didn't
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  3. #3  
    CU Royalty JB's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what he's saying or what he wants done.

    The concept of open marriages, swinging, etc. is not new. If you are married and in that type of relationship then your marriage will be fine (generally). If you are married and you want monagomy that type of openness will not work for you. There are no secular laws regarding being married and boinking someone on the side.

    You could say the same thing about drugs. If you like to smoke crack and your wife doesn't, your marriage won't last. If two married people are crackheads they probably get along swimmingly.

    I'm not advocating any open marriages or even gay marriage and I condone monogamy in marriage but Savage is not providing any revelations or new ways of thinking here.
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  4. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    I'm not advocating any open marriages or even gay marriage and I condone monogamy in marriage but Savage is not providing any revelations or new ways of thinking here.
    But it may be that these things are far more common in gay marriages than straight, and Savage is trying to normalize adultery in straight marriage.

    I had a gay female friend who married her girlfriend when San Francisco started handing out marriage licenses for gays back in the early 2000s. When I went to congratulate her, she explained that it was an open marriage, and that they operated on the basis of "show, don't tell." They both had affairs outside the marriage. Needless to say, they went through a very nasty breakup several years later, and my friend was left with no place to live. So open marriages are no guarantee either.
    Last edited by Elspeth; 01-10-2012 at 07:50 PM. Reason: Forgot the city where they were married. It was SF, not in Vermont.
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  5. #5  
    CU Royalty JB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    But it may be that these things are far more common in gay marriages than straight
    No doubt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth
    and Savage is trying to normalize adultery in straight marriage.
    If that's his agenda then he needs to be smacked down, ridiculed and summarily dismissed.

    I wonder how he got to adopt a kid with this attitude that it's all right to go and bang anyone I want to as long as my gay lover is OK with it. Must have forgot to mention that part when he was being interviewed.
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  6. #6  
    Power CUer noonwitch's Avatar
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    I don't think that Dan Savage or any group of gays can normalize heterosexual adultry more than the entertainment industry already has.
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  7. #7  
    Moderator txradioguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    But it may be that these things are far more common in gay marriages than straight, and Savage is trying to normalize adultery in straight marriage.
    Thei point of forcing the majority of America to accept gay marriage all along has in part been to deconstruct the traditional normal sense of what a marriage is.

    This is just part of it.
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  8. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonwitch View Post
    I don't think that Dan Savage or any group of gays can normalize heterosexual adultry more than the entertainment industry already has.
    A propros, I heard a recent NPR program about a website that keeps information on adulterous liaisons and asked some of its members to journal about what led them into adultery. For the males, it was (unsurprisingly) about sexual practices (things their wives wouldn't do, for example), and for females, it was about the attention, the wooing. I'll see if I can find the link. The guy who ran the website insisted that these adulterous affairs would "help" marriages stay together. I found that not credible, but it surprised me how many places the idea of trying to stick to your marriage vows is taking a beating. There's a concerted effort, and Dan Savage seems to be part of it, to weaken marriage to the point of irrelevancy.
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  9. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by txradioguy View Post
    Thei point of forcing the majority of America to accept gay marriage all along has in part been to deconstruct the traditional normal sense of what a marriage is.

    This is just part of it.
    I never used to think that, but I am beginning to see how that might be true.
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  10. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    I never used to think that, but I am beginning to see how that might be true.
    It is. If you see the gay marriage debate as part of the continuum of attacks on marriage and family, from no-fault divorce to abortion on demand, you see that the legal and moral weight of the culture has been used to weaken every bond that forms families and keeps them together. A family that can raise its own children and provide for them doesn't need a nanny, much less a nanny state.
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