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  1. #1 gay marriage: is it really an issue for the government? 
    Member Black Phoenix's Avatar
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    As this issue keeps circling around the pipe, ever since the Bush administration (and probably before, but I was only a teenager a little boy during the Clinton years so I'm not too sure) I've been hearing about this issue of gay marriage, and the issue has gotten louder as of late. Really whenever the issue is brought up, I can't help feeling like the only guy in the room who realized something was wrong with the entire scenario, when his group started debating whether they should hold funeral services for ten-year-old Tommy, who they killed because he was an annoying child.

    Isn't recognizing or not recognizing a marriage the purview of the church? Don't get me wrong, if my church starts hosting gay marriages, I won't be a member any longer but why does that mean a church I don't go to can't host those marriages?

    Do I think gay marriage is wrong? Absolutely! Course I also think portraying one night stands as normal and productive to young people, gay or straight, is wrong, but I don't see any movement on banning certain movies. I think an open comical look at illegal drugs as normal during a movie based on a children's toy line is pretty much disgusting, but I'm not going to ban the selling of Transformers 2. What do all these things have in common? They're all wrong but don't cause any kind of physical or emotional damage to those not willfully participating.

    I don't know, I support shrinking the government, banning abortion, the average citizen having the right to own a sub machine gun and the attacking of openly hostile, defiant and genocidal nation states to give UN resolutions some freaking backbone, but I feel lost to the republican party on this issue. Why should the government have to right to say who is married and who isn't anywhere, especially the federal government? If it's for tax reasons and married couples need tax breaks just to get along... isn't that more an issue for tax reform? I don't know, if taxes are so freaking high on a man's wife and children not earning money... maybe we shouldn't tax unemployed stay at home moms and ten-year-old brats in the first place... just a thought. And if taxes are reasonable where you live (first off, where to do you live cause I'm a comn' over) and you still can't afford to have children, then wear condoms and adopt out... again, just a thought. (If you can't afford children, maybe you shouldn't be trying to have them. Children are human beings, not pieces of property and you do have a right to them if you can't take care of them.)

    I guess the only real time people have me on this issue is when they start talking about adopting children out to gay couples for social experiments. If that's the issue I can see where you're coming from, but again, that's not an issue of marriage, it's an issue of state and federal laws regarding adoption. To me, single parents should only be allowed the kids that pop out of their own unfortunate misguided relationships naturally, not orphans and victims of abuse or neglect. People with criminal histories should not be allowed to adopt, yes I know you paid your dues but there comes a time when we have to say, maybe you just shouldn't have committed armed robbery in a key bank in the first place. I don't think you should be able to adopt if your shown to not be financially ready for the responsibility. And finally adopting children out to strange relationships just to prove a social point that we weren't sure about when we did it... is freaking appalling. But this is all because children are human beings who can't say "no" in a way we recognize so yes, we should walk on egg shells to get things right for them. Meaning yes, even if we recognize a marriage with a man who is a convicted rapist, that couple doesn't get access to a kid who just got pulled out of an abusive relationship. It also means that if there is no woman in a relationship to be a female role model, I don't think the couple should have a little boy or girl. Is what I'm saying making sense here?


    My point, the federal government shouldn't be in the business of defining or recognizing marriages in the first place, nor telling you that you have to recognize them either. Gay or straight this is not the purview of the federal government.
    I wrote a book! Please come read and support it. No, it's not political.
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  2. #2  
    Power CUer NJCardFan's Avatar
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    For me? No. IMO Hollywood does more to trivialize marriage than 2 dudes wanting to marry.
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  3. #3  
    Senior Member MrsSmith's Avatar
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    The most successful human groups of any size (village, city, state, country) have always been founded on a foundation of family life. Marriage has changed somewhat in those historical groups, but have most often been a partnership of one man and one woman that have children belonging to both and dedicate the majority of their lives to raising those children and enjoying their grandchildren. This foundation has always made for the most successful society. It assists with teaching children how to act as responsible adults, how to remain committed to a person or group even when things are less than ideal, and how to care for their own children.

    As a society, the US has been destroying its foundation for a long time. The elimination of the church from most political and public dealings has reduced the foundations of solid families and contributed to raising generations that are ignorant of their Christian heritage. Easy divorce and the horror of abortion have removed many of the reasons couples would make and keep the commitments required to survive sharing a life with another imperfect human, leading to huge numbers of children that do not live with both natural parents. Welfare has further destroyed the family, leading to huge numbers of children born to single mothers, boys that have no idea how to act like men, girls that have no idea how a husband should treat his wife.

    We have entertainment media that lies about our history, presents favored and unfavored groups in very slanted views, and starts selling sex to kids when they are still toddlers. We have news media that don't hesitate to tell outright lies in order to sell their viewpoint. We have schools that can't even teach basic reading and math. We have inner city neighborhoods that are full of drugs, gangs, and desperation.

    Add to that mix the current demand that we approve of gay marriage, making a mockery of the historical basis for marriage which was the monogamous relationship between a man and a woman for the purpose of having and raising children. This makes marriage nothing more than an agreement based solely on sexual pleasures, not on having and raising the children that belong to both partners. But then go ahead and add children to that mix. We will end up raising the next generation that are ignorant of the history and heritage, nearly illiterate (especially compared to the education expected of our founders), with no clear idea how fathers/husbands should act, no clear idea of the foundation of the family, no foundation upon which to base their own lives...and what will happen to the US?

    We've been playing Social Experiment with our society for decades now...has ANYTHING improved?? ANYTHING AT ALL?? Then maybe we should start backtracking and get back to a solid society while we still have a country instead of "progressing" to the next ignorant step.
    Last edited by MrsSmith; 01-18-2012 at 11:57 PM.
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    In actual dollars, President Obama’s $4.4 trillion in deficit spending in just three years is 37 percent higher than the previous record of $3.2 trillion (held by President George W. Bush) in deficit spending for an entire presidency. It’s no small feat to demolish an 8-year record in just 3 years.

    Under Obama’s own projections, interest payments on the debt are on course to triple from 2010 (his first budgetary year) to 2018, climbing from $196 billion to $685 billion annually.
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  4. #4  
    Member Black Phoenix's Avatar
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    Put it to you this way:

    Say I'm a marriage counselor. A couple comes in to apply for counseling services and I refuse them on the grounds that their marriage license says they were married by an Elvis impersonator at one of Las Vegas' fake churches. Right now I'm pretty sure they can sue as they have a legal union and I can't turn down service to them on grounds that constitute discrimination. Should the government really have the right to force us to recognize marriages, gay or straight?

    Say a Pastor offers counseling as well, and is approached by a couple that he is aware both members have been cheating out of. Thus he does not want to recognize their union as legitimate and again, refuses to service them on the grounds that he does not view their union as real. Again, should the government have the right to force you to recognize a marriage?

    What if I'm a ring maker and someone requests that I make him an engagement ring fitting of their wedding that will be witnessed by space aliens, again at one of the Las Vegas front churches? Once again, I think he's making a mockery of marriage and want to turn him down, but isn't that discrimination as long as the law states I have to recognize the union?

    Maybe I'm not understanding something. What's the purpose of the freaking FEDERAL GOVERNMENT approving ANY marriage? ANY AT ALL.
    I wrote a book! Please come read and support it. No, it's not political.
    http://authonomy.com/books/43841/the...ost-and-found/

    Allah is a god of peace! That's why all his followers want to commit mass murder.
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  5. #5  
    Senior Ape Articulate_Ape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJCardFan View Post
    For me? No. IMO Hollywood does more to trivialize marriage than 2 dudes wanting to marry.
    I agree, NJ. Well said.
    "The efforts of the government alone will never be enough. In the end the people must choose and the people must help themselves" ~ JFK; from his famous inauguration speech (What Democrats sounded like before today's neo-Liberals hijacked that party)
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  6. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrsSmith View Post
    The most successful human groups of any size (village, city, state, country) have always been founded on a foundation of family life. Marriage has changed somewhat in those historical groups, but have most often been a partnership of one man and one woman that have children belonging to both and dedicate the majority of their lives to raising those children and enjoying their grandchildren. This foundation has always made for the most successful society. It assists with teaching children how to act as responsible adults, how to remain committed to a person or group even when things are less than ideal, and how to care for their own children.

    As a society, the US has been destroying its foundation for a long time. The elimination of the church from most political and public dealings has reduced the foundations of solid families and contributed to raising generations that are ignorant of their Christian heritage. Easy divorce and the horror of abortion have removed many of the reasons couples would make and keep the commitments required to survive sharing a life with another imperfect human, leading to huge numbers of children that do not live with both natural parents. Welfare has further destroyed the family, leading to huge numbers of children born to single mothers, boys that have no idea how to act like men, girls that have no idea how a husband should treat his wife.

    We have entertainment media that lies about our history, presents favored and unfavored groups in very slanted views, and starts selling sex to kids when they are still toddlers. We have news media that don't hesitate to tell outright lies in order to sell their viewpoint. We have schools that can't even teach basic reading and math. We have inner city neighborhoods that are full of drugs, gangs, and desperation.

    Add to that mix the current demand that we approve of gay marriage, making a mockery of the historical basis for marriage which was the monogamous relationship between a man and a woman for the purpose of having and raising children. This makes marriage nothing more than an agreement based solely on sexual pleasures, not on having and raising the children that belong to both partners. But then go ahead and add children to that mix. We will end up raising the next generation that are ignorant of the history and heritage, nearly illiterate (especially compared to the education expected of our founders), with no clear idea how fathers/husbands should act, no clear idea of the foundation of the family, no foundation upon which to base their own lives...and what will happen to the US?

    We've been playing Social Experiment with our society for decades now...has ANYTHING improved?? ANYTHING AT ALL?? Then maybe we should start backtracking and get back to a solid society while we still have a country instead of "progressing" to the next ignorant step.
    While your assessment is correct to a degree, it also ignores the carnage that religious social engineering has wrought upon the world. I would say that the secular world has a significant amount of catching up to do in that regard. It could get there, but unless you willfully ignore history, it has a long ways to go.

    I'm just sayin'.
    "The efforts of the government alone will never be enough. In the end the people must choose and the people must help themselves" ~ JFK; from his famous inauguration speech (What Democrats sounded like before today's neo-Liberals hijacked that party)
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  7. #7  
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    I hate to ask ape, but you aren't one of those guys who thinks religion is somehow responsible for almost every war in history and if only people stopped believing in a God and an after life, magic fairy dust would sprinkle down from the sky and everyone would suddenly get along, are you?

    I agree bad things have happened under the watchful eyes of many religions, even my own. Bad things have happened for the sake of anti religion and bad things have happened regardless of religion. And a metric sh** ton of bad things have happened because of people pretending to be religious. I think it's actually kind of dumb to try to compare the two and say one is more responsible.

    Now if you would like to accuse and actual entity with some real power and physical existence (as opposed to a freaking general concept) of something, like the American government or the hierarchy of the Catholic church, we can actually get somewhere.
    I wrote a book! Please come read and support it. No, it's not political.
    http://authonomy.com/books/43841/the...ost-and-found/

    Allah is a god of peace! That's why all his followers want to commit mass murder.
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  8. #8  
    Power CUer noonwitch's Avatar
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    I don't have a problem with gay marriage, as long as the government doesn't require churches or church-run programs to recognize it, if they teach that homosexuality is wrong. The government can and under democrats will refuse funds to organizations that don't recognize it, but there are a lot of very successful charities out there that take no government funds.


    I understand some of the issues with gay adoptions. I don't think that the states should force a church-based adoption agency to adopt children to gay couples, but the state and secular agencies should be allowed to, especially with older children whose options are this or residential treatment. With an older kid, the kid has to agree to the adoption, also.


    As I have said before, I have seen situations in which a positive gay male couple have been the perfect foster parents for teenaged girls dealing with sexual abuse issues.
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  9. #9  
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    Half the population whining because they can't get married, the other half whining because when they got the predicted divorce their spouse got everything.

    Gays try to tell me it's an equality thing, but it isn't. It's about money. Tax deductions. Insurance. Being able to 'stay at home'. They don't really need a government to tell them they are committed.

    But if they want to get married I don't really care one way or the other. And if a heterosexual couple want to live together forever and not get married, I don't care.

    In the future I believe that marriage will die. Hollywood, the gay community, the rapidly declining birth rate, and the enormously long adolescence of our latest generations will kill it.
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  10. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Phoenix View Post
    I hate to ask ape, but you aren't one of those guys who thinks religion is somehow responsible for almost every war in history and if only people stopped believing in a God and an after life, magic fairy dust would sprinkle down from the sky and everyone would suddenly get along, are you?
    No. I think religion is the most convenient tool of those who wish to exploit others for the purposes of gaining and preserving wealth and power. Religion is not the hand, it is the sword. History is replete with evidence to support this notion.
    "The efforts of the government alone will never be enough. In the end the people must choose and the people must help themselves" ~ JFK; from his famous inauguration speech (What Democrats sounded like before today's neo-Liberals hijacked that party)
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