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  1. #51  
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    Quote Originally Posted by fettpett View Post
    Actually, Chavez did serve 2 years in the Navy, but Hispanics could only paint or clean
    USS Los Angeles
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  2. #52  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    And there you have the entire issue in a nutshell. You say he broke the rules, but in your own WIKI article (which I had already read but beat me with a stick had not memorized the life of Chavez) you note the exceptions which have been made. There have been plenty of exceptions. Even you agreed that the rules were not hard and fast.

    So we have some examples of exceptions. We also have the actual history of naming US vessels which included naming for the King Of Wessex.
    I love how you cherry pick data. The names that you cited were before congress codified the naming conventions, and even then, there were reasons that went beyond simple ideology. From the Navy history site:
    Ship names in the Continental Navy and the early Federal navy came from a variety of sources. As if to emphasize the ties that many Americans still felt to Britain, the first ship of the new Continental Navy was named Alfred in honor of Alfred the Great, the king of Wessex who is credited with building the first English naval force. Another ship was named Raleigh to commemorate the seagoing exploits of Sir Walter Raleigh. Some ships honored early patriots and heroes (Hancock andGeneral Greene). Others commemorated the young nation's ideals and institutions (Constitution, Independence, Congress). A 74-gun ship-of-the-line, launched in 1782 and donated to the French Navy on completion, was named America. A Revolutionary War frigate named Bourbon saluted the King of France, whose alliance would further the cause of American independence. Other ship names honored American places (Boston, Virginia). Small warships-- brigs and schooners--bore a variety of names. Some were named for positive character traits (Enterprise, Diligent). Others had classical names (Syren,Argus) or names of small creatures with a potent sting (Hornet, Wasp).
    Your official complaint appears to be twofold: that politics is in the naming process and that the sailors should have veto power over the Secretary.

    Unless we are going to have as many ships of the presidential class as there have been presidents, then choosing which presidents to honor will be political. Talk about a slap in the face- to name ships after Lincoln and Grant? And you're pissed about some lettuce picker?[/QUOTE]
    Yeah, I'm pissed off that the United States Navy named a ship after a "lettuce picker", who just happened to be the head of a corrupt labor cartel/extortion racket. Not exactly the same thing as naming a ship after a king who built the first naval force in the history of the English speaking peoples, or kings who provided critical support during the Revolutionary War, or other naval heroes of our common English heritage (Walter Raleigh) at a time when we were attempting to secure a relationship with Britain. In other words, that was a political reason, but it was a political reason that served the interests of the United States. Naming a ship after what you characterized as a "lettuce picker" accomplishes nothing except to further entrench an leftist icon into our culture. As for the latter, I never said that sailors ought to be able to veto the SECNAV, but somebody ought to have oversight. In the case of vessels serving the Marine Corps, the commandant ought to have input, and congress certainly has an interest in ensuring that our ships are named after men and women who inspire service, rather than inflame partisanship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    BTW, I would like to see an important vessel named for Queen Elizabeth I, the most important woman in the history of the US and the mother country alike.

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  3. #53  
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    Quote Originally Posted by fettpett View Post
    Actually, Chavez did serve 2 years in the Navy, but Hispanics could only paint or clean
    Oops....Gotta take issue with that statement. My good friend Jose and I are still in contact from 44 years ago in the navy. Jose was an Engineman. He stayed in long after I got out and served 40 years. He achieved the rank of Command Master Chief, and wrote the book on maintenance of marine diesels.

    All rates in the post WW II navy were open to Hispanics, but that is not true of Filipinos. Only a few rates (jobs) were open to Filipinos.
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  4. #54  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck View Post
    Oops....Gotta take issue with that statement. My good friend Jose and I are still in contact from 44 years ago in the navy. Jose was an Engineman. He stayed in long after I got out and served 40 years. He achieved the rank of Command Master Chief, and wrote the book on maintenance of marine diesels.

    All rates in the post WW II navy were open to Hispanics, but that is not true of Filipinos. Only a few rates (jobs) were open to Filipinos.
    I meant deckhand, and I was just going by the wiki statement. He joined in 44 and only spent 2 years in.
    "Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings..." Patrick Henry
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  5. #55  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Now we're getting down to your real complaint, about a couple of things. No, the branch of service should not have a veto and they should not be engaging in the petty politics that goes with it.
    No, you're right. We should leave the "petty politics" of naming things to the petty politicians who are nowhere near the systems they desire to name after flaming liberals, traitors, and American Hating A-holes. Much better suggestion.
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  6. #56  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Hard and fast
    This is a nautical term. A ship that was hard and fast was simply one that was firmly beached on land.
    Exceptions:
    Education without values, as useful as it is, seems rather to make man a more clever devil.
    C. S. Lewis
    Do not ever say that the desire to "do good" by force is a good motive. Neither power-lust nor stupidity are good motives. (Are you listening Barry)?:mad:
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  7. #57  
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    Quote Originally Posted by fettpett View Post
    I meant deckhand, and I was just going by the wiki statement. He joined in 44 and only spent 2 years in.
    Nah, they're wrong.

    Hispanic Submarine Commander:
    Captain Marion Frederic Ramírez de Arellano, (1913–1999) USN, the first Hispanic submarine commanding officer,[76] participated in five war patrols. He led the effort to rescue five Navy pilots and one enlisted gunner off Wake Island, and contributed to the sinking of two Japanese freighters and damaging a third. For his actions, he was awarded a Silver Stars Medal and a Legion of Merit Medal.[77]
    Admiral:
    In 1941, Commander Luis de Florez played an instrumental role in the establishment of the Special Devices Division of the Navy's Bureau of Aeronautics (what would later become the NAWCTSD).[34] He was later assigned as head of the new Special Devices Desk in the Engineering Division of the Navy’s Bureau of Aeronautics. De Florez, who has been credited with over sixty inventions, urged the Navy to undertake development of "synthetic training devices" to increase readiness. During World War II, he was promoted to Captain and in 1944, to Rear Admiral.[30]
    Admiral Horacio Rivero, Jr. served aboard the USS San Juan (CL-54) and was involved in providing artillery cover for Marines landing on Guadalcanal, Marshall Islands, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa. For his service he was awarded the Bronze Star with Combat "V" ("V" stands for valor in combat).[35] Rivero was reassigned to the USS Pittsburgh (CA-72) and is credited with saving his ship without a single life lost when the ship's bow had been torn off during a typhoon. He was awarded the Legion of Merit for his actions. Rivero also participated in the Battle of Santa Cruz Islands, the attack on Bougainville in the Solomons, the capture of the Gilbert Islands and a series of carrier raids on Rabaul. On June 5, 1945, Rivero was present during the first carrier raids against Tokyo during operations in the vicinity of Nansei Shoto.[36] Rivero, served as a technical assistant on the Staff of Commander Joint Task Force One for Operation Crossroads from February 1946 to June 1947, and was on the Staff of Commander, Joint Task Force Seven during the atomic weapons tests in Eniwetok in 1948.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispani...ed_States_Navy

    There are many, many more Hispanics (read for yourself at the above link) who achieved rank and distinction during WW II and before that. Someone posted something in Wiki that is contrary to the facts.
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  8. #58  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck View Post
    Oops....Gotta take issue with that statement. My good friend Jose and I are still in contact from 44 years ago in the navy. Jose was an Engineman. He stayed in long after I got out and served 40 years. He achieved the rank of Command Master Chief, and wrote the book on maintenance of marine diesels.

    All rates in the post WW II navy were open to Hispanics, but that is not true of Filipinos. Only a few rates (jobs) were open to Filipinos.
    Hispanic is not a race or ethnicity, it means that you come from a Spanish speaking heritage. Mel Martinez is hispanic, he is not a mestizo.

    This is what cracks me up about the La Raza insistence that they have always been "nonwhite". To determine how society has traditionally viewed Mexicans and Mexican-Americans we would look at race laws and how they were applied to those persons. To the best of my knowledge, it has never been illegal for a white person to marry a Mexican. The same cannot be said of blacks, Indians, and Orientals.

    In 1948 Perez v Sharp we see that Mexican-Americans are traditionally considered white, and that they were forbidden from marrying negroes in California.
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  9. #59  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck View Post
    Someone posted something in Wiki that is contrary to the facts.
    Imagine that.
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  10. #60  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck View Post
    N

    There are many, many more Hispanics .......
    Despite the lack of objectivity of the Wikipedia as a source in many articles, I can't help but note that while "Mexican-American" is not a racial designation per se, there is a commonly held image of a Mexican-American which is largely a North American Indian. None of the "hispanic" men you noted are anything other but caucasian in their appearance and probably in their genealogy.

    I think it's possible that there were indeed barriers for latinos who were readily identifiable as mestizos that didn't apply to everyone who simply had a Spanish surname or ancestry.
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