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  1. #31  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    What an absurd allegation on your part; I would never have maintained that monogamy was the statistical majority in marriage whether heterosexual or homosexual.
    And yet, whenever the bad behavior of gays in public is pointed out, such as at Gay Pride parades, you immediately tell us that they are not the norm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    As such the degree to which that is applicable is irrelevant, since the norm is that there is a spectrum. All I have ever emphasized is that those who oppose marriage equality, in their attempt to do so without sounding like religious idiots generally promote a best (in their opinion) case scenario for heterosexual marriage against a worst case scenario for gay marriage. Of course what they can't do is demonstrate why it's any of their business if two people of the same sex get married and enjoy equal status in that marriage to heterosexuals. Instead, the bigots jump through hoops to try to justify their position which is simply and inarguably based in what has to be deliberate ignorance.
    We keep demonstrating why it's not a good idea, but you keep pretending otherwise. First, despite your claims to the contrary, homosexuality and heterosexuality are not simply alternatives of equal consequence. By every standard, the physical and mental longterm health of gays suffers from the effects of the lifestyle choices that they make, and the elimination of marital fidelity as a norm (and whether you admit it or not, is it the norm in marriages, but not in gay relationships) creates huge stresses on families. Second, by redefining marriage to mean whatever you happen to want it to mean when it is convenient for you, you establish that it can be further redefined. Just as in DADT repeal, other groups have decided to use the same rhetoric to advance their cases. The polygamists, both religious and secular, are beginning to file suits to permit recognition of their "marriages" (Britain already has de facto recognition of Islamic polygamy in their welfare and immigration policies).

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Then we have folks like yourself, who so desperately seek the acceptance of your acquired tribe that you eschew your native intellectual and objective approach in exchange for the admiration of those raised in a culture of ignorance.
    Seriously? That's your argument? That I'm seeking approval and therefore ignoring my own reason? That I'm more concerned with being liked than I am with thinking? What an imbecilic and pathetic attempt at an ad hominem attack. You've got it exactly backwards. I was raised in NYC, and saw the gay lifestyle up close. I don't particularly care what people do to themselves, but I don't have to support it or give it equal standing. A marriage is between a man and a woman. You want to have a relationship that doesn't meet that standard? Fine, but it's not a marriage. Deal with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    You just made me think of Maher's comment about Tim Tebow. Maher is definitely the left's Rush and yet no one on the left called him out on his anti-Tebow and anti-God comment.
    Maher is insulated by several things. First, the MSM agrees with him. They won't take him to task. Second, there is no gain for the left by calling him out, because he is part of the left, and they almost never criticize their own. Finally, his show is on a subscription network that doesn't seek advertising. As long as HBO doesn't start losing subscribers because of Maher, he'll be guaranteed a slot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Sandra Fluke is real. Women are real. God isn't real.
    Sandra Fluke is a fraud. She's not a student, she's a professional activist who went looking for this fight. Her argument, that Republicans want to deny her access to birth control, is a lie. Tim Tebow is real, and whether or not you agree with his faith, the treatment that he has received by the likes of Maher is vile. Fortunately for Maher, Tebow is too decent a guy to respond to him, and Maher isn't the kind of guy who can stand up to a professional football player in a one-on-one confrontation.
    --Odysseus
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  2. #32  
    Moderator txradioguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Sandra Fluke is real. Women are real. God isn't real.

    Prove it.
    In Memory Of My Friend 1st Sgt. Tim Millsap A Co, 70th Eng. Bn. 3rd Bde 1st AD...K.I.A. 25 April 2005

    Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

    To Achieve Ordered Liberty You Must Have Moral Order As Well

    The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.
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  3. #33  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eupher View Post
    Let me get to the point -- on what basis do you make this claim:



    Do you have some sort of data that says that homo/hetero couples' monogamy rates achieve a statistical minority? In other words, that most people in a committed, legal marriage routinely have sex outside of their relationship?

    That's a pretty definitive data point there, seems to me.

    I'd like to see where what you're basing that statement on -- a link to a credible source would be appreciated.
    In the initial request you ask me to link to a credible source to confirm my statement that monogamous couples are a statistical minority, but in the bolded you have changed the terminology to "routinely have sex outside" which is not the definition of monogamy. Just pointing that out. Here is a link to a credible source pertinent to the first request.

    http://www.truthaboutdeception.com/c...nfidelity.html

    It is estimated that roughly 30 to 60% of all married individuals (in the United States) will engage in infidelity at some point during their marriage (see, Buss and Shackelford for review of this research). And these numbers are probably on the conservative side, when you consider that close to half of all marriages end in divorce (people are more likely to stray as relationships fall apart; also see, who is likely to cheat).
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  4. #34  
    PORCUS MAXIMUS Rockntractor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    In the initial request you ask me to link to a credible source to confirm my statement that monogamous couples are a statistical minority, but in the bolded you have changed the terminology to "routinely have sex outside" which is not the definition of monogamy. Just pointing that out. Here is a link to a credible source pertinent to the first request.

    http://www.truthaboutdeception.com/c...nfidelity.html

    It is estimated that roughly 30 to 60% of all married individuals (in the United States) will engage in infidelity at some point during their marriage (see, Buss and Shackelford for review of this research). And these numbers are probably on the conservative side, when you consider that close to half of all marriages end in divorce (people are more likely to stray as relationships fall apart; also see, who is likely to cheat).
    Your Tango an online dating service, I guess as reliable source as any, perhaps more accurate and honest than psychology or psychiatry.
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  5. #35  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    In the initial request you ask me to link to a credible source to confirm my statement that monogamous couples are a statistical minority, but in the bolded you have changed the terminology to "routinely have sex outside" which is not the definition of monogamy. Just pointing that out. Here is a link to a credible source pertinent to the first request.

    http://www.truthaboutdeception.com/c...nfidelity.html

    It is estimated that roughly 30 to 60% of all married individuals (in the United States) will engage in infidelity at some point during their marriage (see, Buss and Shackelford for review of this research). And these numbers are probably on the conservative side, when you consider that close to half of all marriages end in divorce (people are more likely to stray as relationships fall apart; also see, who is likely to cheat).
    That's an absurdly broad statistic (I can still say "broad", can't I? I don't want to have to apologize to Sandra Fluke). It's literally a 30% margin of error, and could indicate an overwhelming majority or minority, or any number in between. Try again.
    --Odysseus
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  6. #36  
    PORCUS MAXIMUS Rockntractor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    That's an absurdly broad statistic (I can still say "broad", can't I? I don't want to have to apologize to Sandra Fluke). It's literally a 30% margin of error, and could indicate an overwhelming majority or minority, or any number in between. Try again.
    Kind of like "I heard it in a bar", which I still would trust more than modern psychology or psychiatry.
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  7. #37  
    PORCUS MAXIMUS Rockntractor's Avatar
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    If you want to know all about marriage ask your resident rump ranger, whatever!
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  8. #38  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockntractor View Post
    Your Tango an online dating service, I guess as reliable source as any, perhaps more accurate and honest than psychology or psychiatry.
    The study was referenced. Here is the reference:


    Although extramarital sex may be the marital activ-
    ity most often cloaked in secrecy, empirical estimates of affairs over the
    course of a marriage range from 30 to 60% for men and from 20 to 50% for
    women (Glass & Wright, 1992; Kinsey, Pomeroy, & Martin, 1948; Kinsey,
    Pomoroy, Martin, & Gebhard, 1953; Hunt, 1974; Athanasiou, Shaver, &
    Tavris, 1970; Levin, 1975; Petersen, 1983). Estimates of the combined prob-
    ability that at least one member of a married couple will have an affair over
    the course of a marriage range from 40 to 76% (Thompson, 1983). Estimates
    of infidelity over the course of a single year of marriage, however, obviously
    yield lower estimates such as 5% (e.g., Greeley, 1991). A conservative inter-
    pretation of these figures suggests that although perhaps half of all married
    couples remain monogamous, the other half will experience an infidelity over
    the course of a marriage. Thus, a critical theoretical and practical issue is
    what predicts who has affairs and who remains maritally faithful.
    Gender is the most consistent previously established predictor of infidelity.
    As the above statistics indicate, more men than women have affairs. Among
    those men and women who do have affairs, men typically have affairs with
    a greater number of partners than do women (Lawson, 1988). Men who have
    affairs are more likely to do so without emotional involvement, whereas
    womenís affairs are more often accompanied by emotional involvement
    (Blumstein & Schwartz, 1983; Glass & Wright, 1985). Gender is also linked
    with the sequelae of infidelity. A womanís infidelity is more likely to lead
    to divorce than is a manís infidelity, across a variety of cultures (Betzig,
    1989). Women whose husbands have affairs report that they are more willing
    to forgive their partner than are men whose wives have affairs (Lawson,
    1988). Finally, men are more likely than women to see their own extramarital
    sex as justified and experience less guilt when they engage in it (Johnson,
    1970; Athanasiou et al., 1970; Spanier & Margolis, 1983).

    http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homep...y-jrp-1997.pdf
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  9. #39  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    The study was referenced. Here is the reference:


    Although extramarital sex may be the marital activ-
    ity most often cloaked in secrecy, empirical estimates of affairs over the
    course of a marriage range from 30 to 60% for men and from 20 to 50% for
    women (Glass & Wright, 1992; Kinsey, Pomeroy, & Martin, 1948; Kinsey,
    Pomoroy, Martin, & Gebhard, 1953; Hunt, 1974; Athanasiou, Shaver, &
    Tavris, 1970; Levin, 1975; Petersen, 1983). Estimates of the combined prob-
    ability that at least one member of a married couple will have an affair over
    the course of a marriage range from 40 to 76% (Thompson, 1983). Estimates
    of infidelity over the course of a single year of marriage, however, obviously
    yield lower estimates such as 5% (e.g., Greeley, 1991). A conservative inter-
    pretation of these figures suggests that although perhaps half of all married
    couples remain monogamous, the other half will experience an infidelity over
    the course of a marriage. Thus, a critical theoretical and practical issue is
    what predicts who has affairs and who remains maritally faithful.
    Gender is the most consistent previously established predictor of infidelity.
    As the above statistics indicate, more men than women have affairs. Among
    those men and women who do have affairs, men typically have affairs with
    a greater number of partners than do women (Lawson, 1988). Men who have
    affairs are more likely to do so without emotional involvement, whereas
    womenís affairs are more often accompanied by emotional involvement
    (Blumstein & Schwartz, 1983; Glass & Wright, 1985). Gender is also linked
    with the sequelae of infidelity. A womanís infidelity is more likely to lead
    to divorce than is a manís infidelity, across a variety of cultures (Betzig,
    1989). Women whose husbands have affairs report that they are more willing
    to forgive their partner than are men whose wives have affairs (Lawson,
    1988). Finally, men are more likely than women to see their own extramarital
    sex as justified and experience less guilt when they engage in it (Johnson,
    1970; Athanasiou et al., 1970; Spanier & Margolis, 1983).

    http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homep...y-jrp-1997.pdf
    Best stop grasping at straws!! Ya bound to slip!
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  10. #40  
    Senior Member Eupher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    In the initial request you ask me to link to a credible source to confirm my statement that monogamous couples are a statistical minority, but in the bolded you have changed the terminology to "routinely have sex outside" which is not the definition of monogamy. Just pointing that out. Here is a link to a credible source pertinent to the first request.

    http://www.truthaboutdeception.com/c...nfidelity.html

    It is estimated that roughly 30 to 60% of all married individuals (in the United States) will engage in infidelity at some point during their marriage (see, Buss and Shackelford for review of this research). And these numbers are probably on the conservative side, when you consider that close to half of all marriages end in divorce (people are more likely to stray as relationships fall apart; also see, who is likely to cheat).
    The terminology change, as such, was not meant to provide or to cite the definition of the term "monogamy". I think we're all conversant enough to know what that word means -- unless you want to parse words, which is not an interest of mine.

    In your link, which appears to be well-sourced, there is a sub-link to a WSJ article that states that for married persons under 30, the infidelity rate for men is at 19% and for women at 13% (2006 data). These rates are substantially higher than they were in 1991, so the article goes on to explain the researchers' conclusions as to why.

    I find this interesting, only because since demographic data (loosely framed) suggest that since people are getting married later in life than perhaps 20-30 years ago, there shouldn't appear to be as large an impact on the entire married population as a subset that is numerically smaller, but nonetheless appears to be driving the overall infidelity rate higher.

    How do you equate this to homosexual "married" couples? Or, perhaps better framed, how do you equate your earlier assertion that homosexual partners do not remain monogamous?

    Also of interest is this list of Buss & Shackelford's references:

    Buss, D. M. (1989). Sex differences in human mate preferences: Evolutionary hypotheses tested in 37 cultures. Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 12, 1-49.
    Buss, D. M. (2000). The dangerous passion: Why jealousy is as necessary as love and sex. New York: Free Press.
    Buss, D. M. (1999). Evolutionary psychology: The new science of the mind. Boston : Allyn and Bacon.
    Buss, D. M. (2003). The evolution of desire: Strategies of human mating (Second Edition). New York : Basic Books.
    Buss, D. M., & Shackelford, T. K. (1997). Susceptibility to infidelity in the first year of marriage. Journal of Research in Personality, 31, 193-221.
    How do you explain that the premise of the article quoted by you, i.e., 30% - 60% of married individuals in the U.S. are likely to cheat (based on 2006 data) is not supported by the Buss & Shackelford's references? Buss & Shackelford's list of references are not dated as recently as 2006 -- the most recent is 2003.

    In fact, a quick scan of that extensive reference list shows only ONE entry from 2006. The rest are dated earlier. This may or may not be an issue, but it does cause me to dig a little deeper.

    And finally, from the web site "Truth and Deception" itself, from the "About Us" page:

    We are a group of scholars, scientists, and working professions interested in sharing information about why people lie to, and cheat on, those they love. More importantly, all of the articles provided on our site are written by someone who has a PhD in one of the social sciences.
    Personally, we have all been deeply hurt by a loved one who has betrayed our trust.

    Professionally, our jobs provide us with the opportunity to investigate deception in everyday life - we work as scholars or have served as consultants to the security industry. Over the years we have had a unique opportunity to think about why people are so willing to betray those they love.
    We created this website to share with you what we have discovered - the "Truth about Deception"
    We hope you find our website useful and informative. Please feel free to contact us with any questions or comments or provide us some feedback.
    For more information about us and what we are trying to do, please see a question from a viewer and our response to it.
    Bolded emphasis mine. I'm not terribly convinced that the presenters of this information are wholly unbiased.
    U.S. Army, Retired
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