Thread: All may not be as it seems in the Martin/Zimmerman case.

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  1. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...-office-report

    Please don't insinuate that I am either a DUer or one of their cohorts.

    This article confirms that he was part of a neighborhood watch program
    http://www.ksdk.com/news/world/artic...fatal-shooting

    This article states that it was an unregistered neighborhood watch program
    http://www.ksdk.com/news/world/artic...fatal-shooting
    Here's your statement:

    "Zimmerman has a history of playing volunteer cop according to the sheriffs office in Sanford. "

    That's not exactly what the articles show. They do show that he volunteered for neighborhood watch in early 2011, and despite the agitprop from Martin's attorneys and the media, the Homeowner's Association had asked for a volunteer. This wasn't something Zimmerman did on his own without anyone's request or approval. What the HOA failed to do was get their neighborhood watch properly registered and Zimmerman properly trained. But this did not mean that Zimmerman was "playing volunteer cop". It meant that he was doing neighborhood watch, which is NOT the same thing.

    And what did he do on neighborhood watch? He called 911 when he saw anything suspicious. That's what you're supposed to do on neighborhood watch. And that's what your first link says he did.

    What your links show me is that Zimmerman was on neighborhood watch and that he called 911 when he saw suspicious behavior. There is no "long history" (the calls date from early 2011, when the robberies started) and while Zimmerman did "volunteer", he was NOT "playing cop"; he was just calling 911.

    Now as to February 26, Zimmerman may have followed Trayvon during the 911 call, but we have no evidence of what he did AFTER that call. Zimmerman himself claims he went back to his SUV to wait for the cops, and that Trayvon approached him. That is what he told the police.

    Now, I would never call you a DUmmie. Not in a million years. But, the agitprop surrounding this case is extreme and the facts are getting lost behind a ton of emotion and mischaracterization, much of it deliberately being foisted on the public by an iffy law firm and the "Civil Rights" establishment. Even the best of us can get caught up in the moment and say things like "long history of playing cop" when it's just a guy on neighborhood watch calling 911 over 14 months because there have been a stream of burglaries in the neighborhood.
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  2. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    Here's your statement:

    "Zimmerman has a history of playing volunteer cop according to the sheriffs office in Sanford. "

    That's not exactly what the articles show. They do show that he volunteered for neighborhood watch in early 2011, and despite the agitprop from Martin's attorneys and the media, the Homeowner's Association had asked for a volunteer. This wasn't something Zimmerman did on his own without anyone's request or approval. What the HOA failed to do was get their neighborhood watch properly registered and Zimmerman properly trained. But this did not mean that Zimmerman was "playing volunteer cop". It meant that he was doing neighborhood watch, which is NOT the same thing.

    And what did he do on neighborhood watch? He called 911 when he saw anything suspicious. That's what you're supposed to do on neighborhood watch. And that's what your first link says he did.

    What your links show me is that Zimmerman was on neighborhood watch and that he called 911 when he saw suspicious behavior. There is no "long history" (the calls date from early 2011, when the robberies started) and while Zimmerman did "volunteer", he was NOT "playing cop"; he was just calling 911.

    Now as to February 26, Zimmerman may have followed Trayvon during the 911 call, but we have no evidence of what he did AFTER that call. Zimmerman himself claims he went back to his SUV to wait for the cops, and that Trayvon approached him. That is what he told the police.

    Now, I would never call you a DUmmie. Not in a million years. But, the agitprop surrounding this case is extreme and the facts are getting lost behind a ton of emotion and mischaracterization, much of it deliberately being foisted on the public by an iffy law firm and the "Civil Rights" establishment. Even the best of us can get caught up in the moment and say things like "long history of playing cop" when it's just a guy on neighborhood watch calling 911 over 14 months because there have been a stream of burglaries in the neighborhood.
    From my point of view, calling the authorities every time something appears a little hokey, being involved in an unregistered neighborhood watch program, apparently roaming the neighborhood with a concealed fire arm and questioning people about their activities would be acting like a cop wannabe. Now don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with any of these activities in and of themselves, but many of the people who have spoken about Zimmerman in several of the stories about this indicate that this was typical behavior for him.

    I know people like this. They are unable to become police men or correctional officers so they spend their time as self appointed neighborhood guardians looking for some 'action' to occur so that they can step in and save the day. Now I am not going to state with some kind of certainty that this is what Zimmerman was doing, but lets just say that if it turns out to be so I will not be surprised in the least.

    Neighborhood watch programs discourage people from getting involved with people acting suspiciously. They are to keep an eye on things and call the police when ever things look odd and let the people handle the situation. This is the prescribed course of action for official Neighborhood Watch programs. Zimmerman seems to have broken all the rules by directly involving himself in this situation.

    According to the recorded tapes of Zimmerman's call this is the exchange

    On the tapes, Zimmerman, claiming Martin looked intoxicated, says he saw the teenager cut through from the main street in the tidy Retreat at Twin Lakes, onto a path between two blocks of townhouses, and decided to gave chase. Zimmerman told a police dispatcher, "These a**holes, they always get away"

    Dispatcher: "Are you following him?"
    Zimmerman: "Yes."
    Dispatcher: "OK, we don't need you to do that."
    http://news.yahoo.com/neighborhood-w...-abc-news.html

    That sounds a lot like he was playing cops and robbers to me.

    Now if he had seen Martin slipping into or out of some body's window or something like then then I would have said he would have been within his rights to confront the person. However, a stranger walking through a neighborhood of town homes does not constitute suspicious activity. I'm sure that there are visitors to this neighborhood all the time, does he question each one that takes a stroll through the neighborhood?

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  3. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    From my point of view, calling the authorities every time something appears a little hokey, being involved in an unregistered neighborhood watch program, apparently roaming the neighborhood with a concealed fire arm and questioning people about their activities would be acting like a cop wannabe. Now don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with any of these activities in and of themselves, but many of the people who have spoken about Zimmerman in several of the stories about this indicate that this was typical behavior for him.
    Yes, from your point of view. That is your opinion. That's not the facts.


    I know people like this. They are unable to become police men or correctional officers so they spend their time as self appointed neighborhood guardians looking for some 'action' to occur so that they can step in and save the day. Now I am not going to state with some kind of certainty that this is what Zimmerman was doing, but lets just say that if it turns out to be so I will not be surprised in the least.
    There are some people like this, but there is NO indication that George Zimmerman did anything before he was asked to by his HOA. If it comes out in court (not in the media, which has a bias here) that Zimmerman had been calling 911 for years, even before the burglaries, then your assessment will have more weight. But the evidence that we have ONLY suggests that Zimmerman's actions were directly related to a recent rash of burglaries.

    Neighborhood watch programs discourage people from getting involved with people acting suspiciously. They are to keep an eye on things and call the police when ever things look odd and let the people handle the situation. This is the prescribed course of action for official Neighborhood Watch programs. Zimmerman seems to have broken all the rules by directly involving himself in this situation.
    Yes, but we've already established that the HOA did not register their volunteers with the official Neighborhood Watch program nor get them official training. Zimmerman cannot be expected to follow training he doesn't have. That's on the HOA.

    According to the recorded tapes of Zimmerman's call this is the exchange


    http://news.yahoo.com/neighborhood-w...-abc-news.html

    That sounds a lot like he was playing cops and robbers to me.

    Now if he had seen Martin slipping into or out of some body's window or something like then then I would have said he would have been within his rights to confront the person. However, a stranger walking through a neighborhood of town homes does not constitute suspicious activity. I'm sure that there are visitors to this neighborhood all the time, does he question each one that takes a stroll through the neighborhood?
    That's your opinion and the way you feel. My feeling, since we're talking about feelings, is that ZImmerman was frustrated in the extreme. It had been over a year of trying to prevent burglaries and they had still occurred. And the guys doing these crimes always got away. I can understand his exasperation. I've lived in neighborhoods with crime, and you never feel safe. And if you're a homeowner, it really gets to you.

    Trayvon was walking slowly that night in the rain. That's not a crime, but it's unusual. Most people on foot in the rain move quickly to get out of it. Trayvon was just ambling, looking around at houses. I would have found his behavior odd too. I might even have thought he was on drugs or drinking. Of course, he could have always been some kind of poet that loved walking in the rain, and then I would have felt bad. But in a high crime area, my first assumption is not going to be "poet."
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJCardFan View Post
    Yeah, something doesn't jibe. 10 days for excessive tardiness or absence while maintaining an A/B average seems somewhat inconsistent. If you're getting suspended for 10 days for attendance violations it means he's probably rarely at school.
    Or that he is consistently tardy. A lot of schools will count being tardy to class as an absence-even if they don't for the first few offenses, eventually they will. So, he could be there to take his tests and complete his work, but he has all those absent days because he was late.


    I don't care if this kid wasn't perfect. He didn't deserve to die.
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  5. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonwitch View Post
    Or that he is consistently tardy. A lot of schools will count being tardy to class as an absence-even if they don't for the first few offenses, eventually they will. So, he could be there to take his tests and complete his work, but he has all those absent days because he was late.


    I don't care if this kid wasn't perfect. He didn't deserve to die.
    That all comes down to what really happened in the last few minutes of his life, which remains quite unclear.
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  6. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DumbAss Tanker View Post
    That all comes down to what really happened in the last few minutes of his life, which remains quite unclear.
    I agree there's a lot that isn't known yet; I'm not going to start with the default setting that the kid deserved what he got.
    "Today, [the American voter] chooses his rulers as he buys bootleg whiskey, never knowing precisely what he is getting, only certain that it is not what it pretends to be." - H.L. Mencken
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  7. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonwitch View Post
    Or that he is consistently tardy. A lot of schools will count being tardy to class as an absence-even if they don't for the first few offenses, eventually they will. So, he could be there to take his tests and complete his work, but he has all those absent days because he was late.
    I asked a friend of mine who is a high school teacher and this is what she said.

    When a high school student has a problem being on time to class by a few minutes, and it is a consistent problem, the parents are called in for a conference. (An occasional tardy is punished by taking points off the class participation grade or giving detention.) If the problem persists, the counselor is brought in and a meeting is set up with the parents, counselor, teacher and student. An action plan is set up and it may include an all-day parental visit to the school with the teenager (which usually embarrasses them ). If the problem still persists, then the dean is called in (or other level of administration; their school has deans). The dean may call for a short suspension (1-2) days along with a meeting with the parents.

    However, a week-long suspension for consistent but mild tardies is rare. The only reason for such a heavy suspension is that the student has been tardy enough to miss an entire class period consistently. So for example, the school day might begin at 7:20 (my friend is at a year round school and they start at 7:20). If the student shows up at 8:20, the student has missed first period. He is excessively tardy for school and has missed the class, so the class counts him "absent". (This explains why Trayvon's problem might be both tardy and absence).

    In my friend's school, students more than 20 minutes tardy in the morning go to a special room so they don't interrupt the class for the rest of the students. They are marked "tardy" for school and "absent" for the class. Their parents are immediately informed by the school. This extreme tardiness issue, in which a student consistently misses his first period class, results in immediate meetings with the parents, then with counselors, then with the dean, etc. But this kind of excessive tardy can result in suspension quicker and for longer periods.



    I don't care if this kid wasn't perfect. He didn't deserve to die.
    And George Zimmerman doesn't deserve to be painted as a racist murderer, without any chance to defend himself. The media has already tried and convicted this man, even though there are so many unanswered questions. That racist tape, with the "f--ing c---ns" on it has already been disavowed by the family's lawyers on Lawrence O'Donnell's The Last Word.

    You can say what you like about the Florida law that exonerated Zimmerman, but under that law the police found him unable to be charged. Zimmerman, if you recall, had injuries and had been on his back on the ground. He may really have been in fear for his life against this 6'3'' teenager who was all muscle and bone. Notice that we know Zimmerman's weight (220, 80lbs heavier than Trayvon, according to the family attorneys) but we don't know his height. I think that's deliberate on the part of the attorneys and the media. My guess from the stockiness of the photo is that Zimmerman is under 5' 10''. That changes the equation of a "poor innocent child" and a "big strong man."

    Please read my debunking thread. There's lots of this stuff on it.
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  8. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DumbAss Tanker View Post
    That all comes down to what really happened in the last few minutes of his life, which remains quite unclear.
    Correct.

    We know that Trayvon approached Zimmerman at least once during Zimmerman's call to the police. That is how Zimmerman verified that the young man was indeed black--he saw him full face as Trayvon was walking toward him with "something in his hand."

    ("He's comin' to check me out. He's got somethin' in his hands." 1 minute into the tape)

    Trayvon clearly rethought this, turned, and walked in the other direction, and that was when Zimmerman followed him.

    ("Shit, he's runnin." 2.06 on the tape.)
    But you can hear Zimmerman getting winded on the tape. It didn't take long. According to the news reports, Zimmerman was 220-240 pounds and he was not as tall as Trayvon (who was 6'3'') or we would have heard about it. The lawyers have been consistent in showing Zimmerman as having a physical advantage, and had Zimmerman been 6'4'', we'd have heard about it.

    Actually, from the windedness on the tape and the stockiness of the photo we have seen, my guess is that Zimmerman was no taller than 5'11' and probably less.

    Zimmerman told the police that he had decided to stop pursuing Trayvon and returned to his SUV, where Trayvon later returned for a confrontation. This makes a great deal of sense considering:

    1. Zimmerman's windedness and lack of fitness. Trayvon, skinny, seventeen, and 6'3'' (long legs) could have easily outrun the short, stocky, 28-year old. It makes sense that Zimmerman stopped, figuring it wouldn't do any good. He also might have taken the police dispatch operator to heart.

    2. Mary Cutcher's story that there were two points of confrontation; one in front of her house and one in the back yard. The one in front of her house was on pavement; her backyard, where Trayvon died, was grass. Had Zimmerman gone back to his SUV, it would have been on the street by pavement. It would make sense that Trayvon might have, once again, approached him there.

    (Interestingly, the youtube video of Mary Cutcher that I saw--the raw feed of the lengthy interview-- is now not easy to find. Cutcher has made many news appearances since then and there are snippets. Her original interview is highly detailed and includes the information about the location of the confrontations. I will continue to look for the link.)

    Meanwhile, check out the official tapes (without the dubious expletive that the family's attorneys have backed away from.)

    http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/911/call1.wav
    Last edited by Elspeth; 03-22-2012 at 07:12 PM.
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