Trayvon Martin: Debunking thread

[Elspeth]

12. But what about asking all those neighbors at Twin Lakes if they knew Trayvon!!

Where do you suggest they start?

Twin Lakes is a large complex and searching every house from 7:30 onward (during the NBA All Star Game, which began on TNT at 7:30) would not necessarily have yielded any results.

The police had no idea where Trayvon was from and Trayvon carried no legal ID--he was not driving yet according to news reports. They had no idea where to start. None of the witnesses came forward and identified him--they didn't know who he was either. Trayvon was not from Twin Lakes. Neither was his father. It was his father's girlfriend who lived there.

So, the short answer is, needle meet haystack. Much more efficient to wait for Monday and subpoena the cell phone records.

[Elspeth]

13. Well, you racist, on Politics Nation, Trayvon's mother says that the voice crying for help on that 911 tape is absolutely her son!!

Yes she does. But notice that the Reverend Al does not ask the father. Wonder why? Remember, the father did not recognize the voice as his son's at first.

For the record, I would like that audio tested by professionals. Let George Zimmerman make another screaming recording and test the voice prints. See if there's some MP3 with Trayvon's voice on it. Test it. I'd like to see this question answered.


And one snarky note: I have to say that, on Politics Nation, Trayvon's mother looks like she has been coached and is trying to find the words she was coached to say. Just a personal impression.

Oh and THANK GOD that Reverend Al has finally learned how to pronounce "Skittles"! (I will miss "Skillits", though.)

[Elspeth]

14. You're just beating a dead horse because you are a racist! Even Brian Williams on NBC agrees with the Reverend Al on Politics Nation that George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin in cold blood!!!

Neither Brian Williams nor the Reverend Al has a clue as to what really happened. No one does. (Yeah, yeah, the girlfriend called, but she couldn't tell where Trayvon was, where he was walking, or what he was doing.)

There are a great many possibilities from an accidental shooting (with Zimmerman taking the gun out as a threat, not intending to really use it), to self defense (with Zimmerman thinking Trayvon really WAS going to kill him), to cold blooded murder (Zimmerman decided that Trayvon must die and intentionally pulled the trigger).

The fight could have gone down in any number of ways. According to NBC news this evening, Zimmerman told the police that he had returned to his car to wait for them and had decided not to pursue Trayvon. (I know, I know, he's a racist liar murder scumbag Republican). But let's say Zimmerman had returned to his truck to meet up with the officer he knew was coming. That would have meant that Trayvon, who was walking toward him during Zimmerman's initial call to the police, might have approached him again and taken a swing. Remember, Zimmerman was bleeding from his head and from his nose. (I know, that racist, bastard, Republican, piece of shit freeper bloodied his own nose and banged his own head against cement to make it bleed. )

So, to end our discussion, boys and girls, remember that we DON'T KNOW what really happened, and neither do Brian Williams or the Reverend "Skillits" Al. No one can say "in cold blood."

No one.

[Elspeth]

#15. (From our friend at another board. ) For those "Justifying" Zimmerman's actions: When in this country does it become a OKAY for one person-regardless of sex, color, age etc-to be killed simply because he walked down a FUCKIN public street?!


Trayvon was minding his own business. He was walking to a home HE HAD EVERY RIGHT TO GO TO! He didn't say one word to Zimmerman UNTIL ZIMMERMAN started following him! He didn't know who Zimmerman was all he knew was that Zimmerman was FOLLOWING HIM! For all we know Trayvon might have been frighten this man was going to attack him or kidnap him or anything like that!


Facts are Zimmerman followed Trayvon NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.


Wow, exciting with lots of CAPS! And Exclamation Points!!! (I bet you thought I was making that up. )

Let's unpack this: George Zimmerman did not just shoot Trayvon because he was "walking down a FUCKIN public street ?!" If this had been the case, there is no way that even Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law would have applied.

Also remember that Zimmerman had injuries. I know you all like to forget that, but Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and head. He also had grass stains on the back of his jacket, indicating that he had hit the ground at some point during the scuffle. Neighbors saw the two men scuffling, not one. All of this means that Trayvon got some hits in.

Now, do we know who threw the first punch? Not yet. Do we know who yelled first? Well, if we believe the girlfriend, it was Trayvon. Was Trayvon justified in confronting Zimmerman and demanding to know why he was being followed? Sure. Was it the wisest move he could have made? Probably not.

What should Trayvon have done?

I'll grant you that he was scared. He didn't know who Zimmerman was and being followed by some guy you don't know is just creepy. No question.

But I've learned from years of living in LA that you NEVER confront someone you don't know. In LA, it could be someone with a weapon.


Now I'm a girl, and I'm not confronting a male physically. Not happening. So what would I have done?

Here are two options:

1. I might knock on a close by door and get some help from people in that house. So, there would be a witness. So injury would be less likely.

"Hi, my name is Trayvon. I'm staying with my dad's girlfriend at XXXX. There's this guy in a van trailing me and I want to call the police."

That should have done the trick.

Now, you might say, "Those racist neighbors wouldn't have let him in!" Except we know that Twin Lakes was 50% Black and Hispanic. Trayvon had a good chance of finding a non-white at home. And considering the white people from Twin Lakes who have come out of the woodwork lately (Mary Cutcher...Mary Cutcher!), there were a lot of non-racist whites as well. And Trayvon had a baby face. That's what Mr. Crump the lawyer says, anyway. Someone would have helped.

Well, you say, what if no one was home, huh? How about that you racist!

I say "Highly unlikely" since the NBA All Star Game was starting at 7:30 on TNT and the pregame show was already on (started at 7). A lot of guys were around those TeeVees and a lot of women were sighing, bored. However, just in case Trayvon went to the house where no one was home, there is a second option:

2. Call the police on your cell phone.

That's right. Hang up on the girlfriend. You've been talking to her all goddamned day and she's no help. CALL 911 Right Fucking NOW!

Got it?

Can you imagine the police dispatch getting reports of a guy in a van stalking you, while the guy in the van is calling the police telling them that you're just standing there on your phone? (Yeah, it's lame, but funny.)

Seriously, use the phone God gave you and call the police.

So we have two decent, if girly, options.

What else have I done as a girl? Well, I have run away. I have found a place to hide. I have also screamed my guts out. That usually sends most non-criminal types running for the hills.

But under no circumstances would I physically confront anyone.

I do believe that Trayvon would be alive today if he had not physically tangled with Zimmerman.

OK, Zimmerman was the pursuer.
OK, Zimmerman was at fault for not just staying in the van.
OK, Zimmerman was a complete asswipe for carrying a gun on neighborhood watch.
OK, Zimmerman was angry at all the robberies and was convinced Trayvon was a suspect because black teens in hoodies had been robbing Twin Lakes for a year.

OK.

George Zimmerman was wrong.

And Trayvon was innocent.


But if any strange man is following me, is it better for me if I go confront him, or is it better if I find protection or call the police?

See the strange man might be totally in the WRONG, and I may be totally innocent, but I have a responsibility to myself NOT to do anything stupid. That is, if I want to live.

So, I'm running, knocking on doors, getting witnesses and calling the police.

But, but, (you say) Trayvon had a right to stand his ground!

Uh huh. So would I, in Florida. And if I'm not armed, I'm finding a safe place to retreat. Just because the law allows it doesn't mean it's the best idea.

And yeah, you can tell George Zimmerman that, too.

[Elspeth]

16. Oooo...A challenge!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002453206

Star Member MrMickeysMom (8,665 posts) ]
5. Give me 5 minutes with the next fuck who tries to say that...


Witless shits have no fucking clue what they are talking about.

Now you know MrMickeysMom wants to say "racist", but she's trying to look PC.

So, if she really means it, she can have 5 minutes. Explain why this thread is totally wrong. Explain why Zimmerman deserves no presumption of innocence. Explain why Trayvon's actions should not be examined. Explain why the misinformation that has been filling the airwaves is ok.

Go on.

You got your five minutes.

[Elspeth]

17. But, but, but, Zimmerman said "These assholes always get away." That means he is a RACIST!?!

Zimmerman did indeed say "These assholes always get away" during his phone call to the non-emergency police dispatch number. Did he really mean "Those n---rs always get away!" or "Those c--ns always get away!"?

Or did he simply mean, "These asshole burglars always get away."

Yeah, burglars.

Twin Lakes had been robbed 8 times, and none of the burglars had been caught.

Ever have that experience? Ever have crimes committed--even petty ones--and know that the perpetrators never get caught? Doesn't that frustrate you?

Well, you say, Zimmerman was really referring to all Blacks because he was a RACIST!??!

There's no evidence as to that. In fact, everyone who actually knew him says that he is NOT a racist. What there is evidence for is Zimmerman's frustration with the burglaries. And yes, he had profiled Trayvon, and as it turned out wrongly. But his frustration was with the burglaries and the inability of the police to stop them.

But, you say, I would NEVER say anything like that. I would never get frustrated and blurt out "assholes" like that. And I would never profile!!!

OK. Let's say there's an item in the news. The Catholic Church is currently lobbying for laws to make it harder for molestation victims to go after their abusers/rapists. That's right. Google it.

Now think of all those priests who abused children and got away with it. Think about all those kids with a lifetime of hurt and shame and unbelievable pain. Think of the Church moving priests from one place to another but never allowing priests to be prosecuted civilly.

Doesn't that frustrate you?

Especially when it happens over and over?

Have you called the priests or the Church "assholes" or worse?

Have you ever pulled your kid away from a priest, just in case? In a pew? On a subway? In a market?

Think about it.

[Adam Wood]

EXCELLENT debunking, Elspeth! Very well-done. So few people who are howling about this are actually dealing with facts instead of their emotions on this that it's just absurd noise out there for the most part.


I have a couple of small ... refinements, let's call them ... on this.

3. Trayvon had no criminal record.

Technically, neither does Zimmerman. The battery charge was apparently a very minor incident in which a friend of his was being arrested and he apparently made some sort of question to the arresting officer and made physical contact, but apparently didn't throw a punch or anything like that. It was reduced to charge that left him with a clean record, so obviously it was a very minor incident, probably just a misunderstanding.

He had been suspended from his high school the week before his death for excessive absenteeism. His high school was Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School in Miami.

I mentioned this in the other thread, but it bears repeating: there are multiple inconsistencies in the reporting (what tiny little bit there is) of Martin's suspension. A teacher claims that he received a five-day suspension. That, however, does not coincide with the Dade County Schools handbook (.pdf warning), which does not afford suspensions for tardiness (indeed, it doesn't mention penalties for tardiness at all), nor does it coincide with the individual school's own tardiness policy (.pdf warning; see page 36-37). The scale says that the tenth incidence of tardiness shall result in an out-of-school suspension of three days, and the eleventh incidence will result in an out-of-school suspension of ten days. There is no provision for a five-day suspension, nor is there some combination that would result in such. So whoever is claiming that this is a five-day suspension is wrong. This clearly has to be a ten-day suspension, since Martin had already been in Sanford for a week when the shooting occurred. So, that begs the question: has Martin been tardy to school eleven times already this year (begging the question about how much of a good student he is, as is claimed), or did he commit some offense under the Dade County handbook that required a ten-day suspension (pretty much all of which are serious, and mostly violent, incidents)?

Also, both handbooks clearly point out in numerous places that a student on suspension has the right to continue their coursework (presumably homework, tests, etc.), but they will not receive class participation credit (obviously some part of one's overall grade). So this "A-B student," a senior in high school, doesn't continue his coursework while on suspension (obviously he can't when he's 200 miles away from home for no readily apparent reason), jeopardizing his graduation? For whom does that make any sense? Certainly not me.

And, just what is the reason he was in Sanford at all? OK, he was suspended from school, for whatever reason. Why was he sent to Sanford to eat candy and watch basketball? I got suspended for three days in high school, and I didn't leave my room for anything other than meals or the bathroom. No telephone, no computer, no anything other than stare at the walls or work on school work. I sure as shit wasn't sent 200 miles away. So what on earth caused this mother to ship young Trayvon off to some place half a state away?

Something reeks in Denmark.



Finally, W/R/T the girlfriend's phone call: this should be regarded with extreme suspicion. This girl was allegedly talking to Martin literally the instant before he died, even so much as hearing a fight between Martin and another man, with Martin on the phone telling her how scared he was. What does she do with this information? Does she call the police in Sanford right away? No. After she finds out that Martin is dead and she was talking to him last, does she call the police to tell them about this vital conversation? No. Does she tell anyone about this vital, allegedly damning information in those critical first hours after Martin dies? No. She waits almost a month (more than enough time to simply concoct a conversation that she thinks will implicate someone) and then she sells her story to the highest bidder for the exclusive, ABC news, and she still does not contact the police with this vital, damning information that would put Zimmerman away.

This is simply not very credible information at this point.

[Elspeth]

Adam,

Thanks for adding what you know!

I am being very careful about the suspension until we know more specifics. I have a friend who is a high school teacher, and from what she has told me a week-long suspension is rare for tardiness, which is usually handled by detention, parental meetings, and possibly meetings with the counselor or the Dean. A suspension, if given, is usually a 1-day in-school suspension.

For a week-long suspension, the student would have to have been tardy enough to miss one or two morning classes, consistently, and efforts at remediation with parents, counselors, the dean, etc. would have to have completely failed. It can happen, but it's rare.

We really don't know why Trayvon was suspended. We have been told alternately "tardiness", "absenteeism" (and these two can be the same thing if you're late enough to miss classes), and "administrative issues" (i.e. non-violent offenses). Until we get more specifics, I am holding off on making a judgment either way.


PS: You think you can send this link to a friendly party? Is there some host that might be interested?

[Taylor2012]

Let me add two points.

One, Zimmerman had a concealed carry license and was legally allowed to take his gun along with him on his patrol.

Two, the first photo I saw of Trayvon showed a smiling, baby faced ""innocent"". In the second photo I saw he looked like an angry older individual, and nowhere near an innocent one. So yes, there is a LOT more to this incident that has yet to come out.

For all we know, Trayvon could have already been involved in nefarious dealings ....and may indeed have been casing the area. That would be the logical assumption to be made by Zimmerman when the kid didn't appear to be going straight home from the store....but looking and lurking about.

Time will tell. Thanks for this informative thread, by the way.



[QUOTE=Elspeth;492197]#15. (From our friend at another board. ) [b] For those "Justifying" Zimmerman's actions: When in this country does it become a OKAY for one person-regardless of sex, color, age etc-to be killed simply because he walked down a FUCKIN public street?!

QUOTE]

[Elspeth]

# 18. But, but, but George Zimmerman was the pursuer!!! Trayvon was never a threat to him, you racist slime!!11!!



Hold on there, cowboy.

We are only sure of one thing: that Zimmerman followed Trayvon on foot for a minute or so when he was on the phone with the non-emergency police dispatch. Zimmerman later told police that he had stopped following Trayvon and had come back to his car after that. He says that Trayvon approached him at his SUV.

I know I'm a horrible racist for pointing that out.


Besides, you racist Republican bitch !!!, Trayvon NEVER approached Zimmerman. NEVER!!1111

Uh, yeah, he did. During the tape.

Let's look at the tape, since the only time we can really account for in regard to pursuit and approach is during Zimmerman's phone call to police dispatch.

Here's what we know from the tape.

For the purposes of this argument, I am using the following version on youtube. Make sure to delete the extra spaces when you cut and paste:

http://w ww.yo utube.c om/watch?v=YrkLJifqmVE

ALL TIMES ARE APPROXIMATE


1. We know that Trayvon approached Zimmerman at least once during Zimmerman's call to the police, about 58 seconds into the call. That is how Zimmerman verified that the young man was indeed black--he saw him full face as Trayvon was walking toward him with "something in his hand."

("Now he's coming towards me" 58 secs into the tape)

("And he's a black male" 1.08 into the tape)
Before then, if you recall, Zimmerman was far enough away that he couldn't be sure of Trayvon's race.

("He's comin' to check me out. He's got somethin' in his hands." 1.24 into the tape)

Zimmerman sounds concerned here. Trayvon's approach may have upped the ante for Zimmerman.


2. A little over a minute into his approach, Trayvon changes his mind and starts running away.

("Shit! He's running. 2.06 into the tape)

We don't know why Trayvon changes his mind or if he got close enough to hear the conversation. We know from Zimmerman that he was headed toward "the back entrance" of the neighborhood.



3. It's after Trayvon starts running, that George Zimmerman gets out of the SUV to pursue Trayvon on foot.

(Car door opening "ding". 2.10 on the tape; Car door closing, 2:14 on tape)

It is here that George Zimmerman's pursuit begins.



4. But Zimmerman's no runner.

You can hear Zimmerman getting winded immediately after he starts.

(Heavy breathing begins: 2.20)

The breathing is heavy enough to tip off the police dispatch operator that Zimmerman was pursuing Trayvon.

("Are you following him?" 2.23)

It is after this that the dispatch operator tells him "We don't need you to do this." (2.26)


According to the news reports, Zimmerman was 220-240 pounds and he was not as tall as Trayvon (who was 6'3'') or we would have heard about it. The Martin family lawyers have been consistent in showing Zimmerman as having a physical advantage, and had Zimmerman been 6'4'', we'd have heard about it.

Actually, from the windedness on the tape and the stockiness of the photo we have seen, my guess is that Zimmerman was no taller than 5'11' and probably less.


5. Zimmerman's windedness continues until Trayvon is out of sight.


(Windedness: 2.20-2.45 on the tape)

In fact, George seems to barely be able to get out his name:

("Sir, what is your name" 2.36)
("George" 2.37)

Then Trayvon is gone:

("He ran" 2.39)


6. Breathing pattern on the tape indicates that Zimmerman has stopped his pursuit

Zimmerman is still in motion after Trayvon runs, but his breathing is less heavy and he is able to talk to the dispatch operator more easily, meaning he is moving more slowly. This argues strongly against Zimmerman's continued pursuit of Trayvon on foot. There is no way a guy who gets winded so easily can keep up with a 6'3'' very skinny teen of 140 lbs.

So where was Zimmerman going? Maybe back to his SUV, like he told the police later.

At 2.22 on the tape, Zimmerman agrees to meet the police officer at a given location:

("Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?" 2.55)
("Yeah" 2.57)

By the time the police officer asks if George wants to meet the police officer "at the mailboxes" (3.43 on the tape) George's breath has greatly slowed down. He cannot be pursuing anyone on foot at this time.


7. Zimmerman indicates that he might change location.

After agreeing to meet at the mailboxes, Zimmerman changes his mind:

"Could you have him call me and I'll tell him where I'm at?" (3.48)

This sounds like Zimmerman might want to look for Trayvon, and the only way he could do that was in his SUV. He doesn't have the physical stamina to search on foot.

However, we don't know exactly what Zimmerman did after that. A lot depends on the addresses mentioned in the call and the address of Mary Cutcher who claims that Trayvon was shot in her backyard. (There's a challenge, boys and girls!)



So what have we learned?

1. Trayvon did approach George Zimmerman and this had an effect Zimmerman. It seems to have scared him and made him angry.

2. After Trayvon ran, Zimmerman got out of his car and tried to pursue on foot, but got immediately winded. No doubt, this pursuit plus the initial SUV trailing him scared Trayvon and made him angry.

3. George Zimmerman is not in the best shape physically. He is probably overweight for his height and gets winded easily.

So you have two males under 30 who are both scared of and angry at each other. I imagine that both thought that the other was a danger to his life.

But, but, why didn't that racist piece of crap Zimmerman stop pursuing Trayvon??? Why didn't he listen to the 911 operator????? Why did that cracker go after him in a SUV????!!!!!!

Well, boys and girls, the non-emergency dispatch operator told him to stop pursuing Trayvon when George was running after him on foot. It's possible that Zimmerman didn't think that direction applied to keeping track of the teen with his SUV.

And Zimmerman is not a cracker, he's Hispanic.

Maybe that makes him a tortilla?