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  1. #1 Hey DUmmies! Why did Trayvon's dad LIE about the reason Trayvon left the house? 
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    Since the beginning of this media storm, Trayvon's father and attorney have told us the following:

    ...on February 26, during halftime of the NBA All-Star Game, 17-year-old Trayvon Martin walked to buy Skittles and iced tea from 7-Eleven in Sanford, Florida. On his way back to his father's house in a gated community...
    http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/03...ews-story.html

    This story, ubiquitous as it is, can be found many places:

    www.wftv.com/ news/ news/ state-attorney-case-will-be-given-grand-jury-shoot/ nLX9c/
    www.motherjones.com/ politics/ 2012/ 03/ what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained
    www.open.salon.com/ blog/ steve_klingaman/ 2012/ 03/ 19/ trayvon_martins_deadly_skittles_run

    And many, many others.

    So let's take apart that timeline.

    1. Trayvon Martin was spotted by George Zimmerman sometime before 7 pm, February 26.
    2. Zimmerman's call to the non-emergency police dispatch number started at 7 pm.
    3. According to the Sanford Police Report, the police officers were dispatched at 7:17 pm
    4. According to the Sanford Police Report, Paramedic Brady announced Trayvon Martin dead at the scene at 7:30 pm, after several minutes of trying to revive him with CPR.

    So, what's wrong?

    What's wrong is that the NBA All Star Game did not start until 7:30 pm that night on TNT. The pregame show started at 7.

    http://www.tvtango.com/listings/2012/02/26
    http://www.nba.com/allstar/2012/full-event-schedule/

    So there is no way that Trayvon could have left the house "during halftime" of the NBA All Star Game. He was dead before that game began.

    So why lie about it?

    What's the family hiding?

    You can add that to the fact that Tracy Martin (Trayvon's dad) did not call the police until 12-13 hours after Trayvon left the house. (Politics Nation, MSNBC, March 21st, first segment http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45755884/).

    12-13 hours? For a minor child?

    Assuming Trayvon left the house around between 6-6:30 that night (depending on how long it takes to walk to 7-11), it meant that Tracy Martin did not call the police until 6-7:30 the next morning when he claims to have made a "Missing Persons Report". He let his underage, 17-year old kid leave the house, disappear, and didn't worry about him for 12 hours, even though he hadn't had a phone call from him since at least 7:30 the night before?

    12-13 hours?

    If that boy had not been home by 9 or 10pm, most parents would have called the police, frantic. He had just gone for a few snacks. He was in a neighborhood that was not his own. He was on foot. And it was raining.

    12-13 hours?

    And no, Tracy Martin did not have to wait that long to call the police. Not for a minor child missing.

    Martin gives no indication that he even went out looking for the boy or that he had his girlfriend call the neighbors. Surely one of the neighbors would have told her that the police had been to Twin Lakes that night for a fatality. Trayvon was not that far from home when he was shot.

    But Martin does nothing for 12-13 hours.

    It almost sounds like he expected his son to be out until the wee hours of the morning. That is one reason why he might have gone to bed and not started to worry about Trayvon until the next morning.

    That might also explain the problem with the timeline. Tracy Martin may not have known the exact time his son had left the house. And he may not have expected him to be back.

    When George Zimmerman saw Trayvon, it wasn't just his "blackness" and his hoodie that alerted him. It was the fact that Trayvon was walking slowly, in no hurry to get home, even though it was raining. Trayvon was ambling, looking at the houses (according to Zimmerman). That to Zimmerman looked like a burglar "casing" the houses.

    That to me looks like Trayvon was in no hurry to get home. Even though the NBA All Star Game was about to start at 7:30.

    What scenario might fit the facts?

    1. Trayvon and his father had a big fight.

    Trayvon had just been suspended for 5 days. We have been told the suspension was for tardies, but a week-long suspension indicates a serious attendance problem. What was Trayvon doing during the school day? Why was he late so often? Maybe his father knew. And maybe father and son had a huge fight over Trayvon's suspension, and Trayvon left the house in anger. Or maybe Tracy kicked his son out of the house.

    Either way, that would explain (1)Tracy not remembering the exact time Trayvon left the house (2) Tracy not worrying about him right away, and (3) Trayvon's being in no hurry to get home.

    2. Tracy told his son to leave the house for the evening so that Tracy and his girlfriend could have sex.

    This would explain why Tracy didn't worry if Trayvon didn't get home until very late, after he and the girlfriend had gone to bed. This would also explain why Trayvon seemed to be in no hurry to get home; he had a lot of time to kill and he didn't know anyone around the neighborhood.


    These are only two of the many possible scenarios. But what we do know is that Trayvon NEVER watched that NBA game, no less made it to halftime. He was dead before the game began. And his family has some explaining to do.
    Last edited by Elspeth; 03-22-2012 at 11:57 AM.
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  2. #2  
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    Here are some other possiblities:

    3. Tracy Martin wasn't aware that his son left the house, nor that he was gone overnight, until he got up the next morning.

    This would make Trayvon's dad a negligent parent. OR perhaps Trayvon was supposed to watch the game in another room while dad and girlfriend got busy. Maybe he left the house with the TV on and his dad never knew.

    This would explain why Tracy didn't know an exact time his son left and why he had to pin it on something like the NBA game. Perhaps the police told him that his son had snacks in his pocket and his father figured that the snacks were for the game.

    4. Tracy gave Trayvon permission to go out earlier in the day, and was unaware that Tracy had not returned.

    Here again, the father is not paying attention.

    Remember that Trayvon was 6'3'', taller than his dad. He was also almost an adult. Perhaps his dad figured that Trayvon would be safe at night no matter where he went and he took a hands off attitude.
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    I don't see how these conspiracy theories have anything to do with the situation that happened between Trayvon and George.

    I mean seriously, what does this proof? Trayvon's dad was a shitty parent? It doesn't fill in the gaps of was George fearful of his life and did that warrant him to shoot this kid.

    Self defense is the key here and I personally believe George lost the right to the stand your ground law when he confronted this kid. As the facts present themselves now, he confronted Trayvon after being told not to, the police were on the way. Who's to say Trayvon didn't feel like his life was in danger and he was defending himself when he scuff led with George once he was confronted . When you initiative the confrontation, you have now weakened your claim that you were fearful of this person and needed to shoot him to protect yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gentleman Pirate View Post
    I don't see how these conspiracy theories have anything to do with the situation that happened between Trayvon and George.
    Wrong term. To have a conspiracy, you have to have a group of people conspiring. No one has suggested that.

    What has been suggested is that the evidence we have been hearing is problematic. Specifically, the father has clearly lied about when Trayvon left the house. It was physically impossible for Trayvon to have left the house during a game that started after he died. Can you at least agree to that? That's not a theory that's a fact.

    I mean seriously, what does this proof? Trayvon's dad was a shitty parent?
    It doesn't prove that. It suggests that Trayvon's dad is not always accurate, and this thread was to remind DUmmies that they have to be critical of what they're hearing on all sides, not just on Zimmerman's side. It's also a reminder that we don't really know much about the family, and before making this kid a martyr we need to know a little bit more.

    It doesn't fill in the gaps of was George fearful of his life and did that warrant him to shoot this kid.
    A father's lie does not mean that the shooting was justified. No one has suggested that. All that is being suggested is to be very careful with all that emotional energy being fed by the media and the agitprop of the left. Not everything you're hearing is fact, but the emotional energy makes people lose their perspective.

    Self defense is the key here and I personally believe George lost the right to the stand your ground law when he confronted this kid. As the facts present themselves now, he confronted Trayvon after being told not to, the police were on the way. Who's to say Trayvon didn't feel like his life was in danger and he was defending himself when he scuff led with George once he was confronted . When you initiative the confrontation, you have now weakened your claim that you were fearful of this person and needed to shoot him to protect yourself.
    Look at what I bolded in your quote. The "facts" have been changing over the past few days, and most of these "facts" have appeared only in the media, where there are no legal penalties for lying, misrepresenting, or deliberate distortion. There are also no safeguards for people's changing memories of that night. Until the real facts are established in a court of law, neither you nor I have ANY basis on which to decide on Zimmerman's guilt. Your opinion (above) is based entirely on what the media has told you at any given time. As such, it's pretty worthless.

    All I'm saying is that we know nothing for sure except three things:

    1. Trayvon is dead
    2. Zimmerman shot him
    3. Trayvon did not leave the house during the NBA All Star Game half time. The game began after he died.
    Last edited by Elspeth; 03-24-2012 at 01:05 PM.
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    Another "changing" fact:

    The media has been saying all week that Trayvon had been suspended for 5 days for attendance issues. Right media reported 10 days, and DUmmies pooh-poohed that.

    But now, a mainstream source says that Trayvon's suspension was for 10 days--not 5. A 10-day suspension is quite serious. That can't just be attendance.

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/1...nts-criss.html
    The Miami Herald
    Martin, who was from Miami Gardens, was killed in Sanford, a town of 55,000 just north of Orlando. His father took Trayvon there after the junior was suspended for 10 days from Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High.

    The family has refused to say why Trayvon was suspended, only offering that he had violated school policy. They said his act was not violent or criminal.

    Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/1...#storylink=cpy

    Not only that, but when Tracy Martin finally decided to look for his son, he checked to see if his son had been arrested:


    When he didn’t return back to the townhouse, it would be another 12 hours before Tracy Martin found out his son was dead.

    “I started making calls to see if he was arrested,” he said.

    Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/1...#storylink=cpy

    Remember that Martin admits that he did not start calling the police until 12-13 hours after Trayvon left the house. (MSNBC, Politics Nation, March 21, 1st segment)
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    I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the sudden need to go get Skittles. Different strokes I guess.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    Wrong term. To have a conspiracy, you have to have a group of people conspiring. No one has suggested that.

    What has been suggested is that the evidence we have been hearing is problematic. Specifically, the father has clearly lied about when Trayvon left the house. It was physically impossible for Trayvon to have left the house during a game that started after he died. Can you at least agree to that? That's not a theory that's a fact.
    Ok, I'll use a different term. I still don't see how these "questions" regarding the events right before and right after have anything to do with the moment George saw Trayvon and when Trayvon ended up dead. Everything else is just filler.

    It doesn't prove that. It suggests that Trayvon's dad is not always accurate, and this thread was to remind DUmmies that they have to be critical of what they're hearing on all sides, not just on Zimmerman's side. It's also a reminder that we don't really know much about the family, and before making this kid a martyr we need to know a little bit more.
    Actually it does. If your conclusions are correct that he didn't check on the status of his son for 12 hours and/or sent him away so he could bang his girlfriend, that proves he is a shitty father.

    A father's lie does not mean that the shooting was justified. No one has suggested that. All that is being suggested is to be very careful with all that emotional energy being fed by the media and the agitprop of the left. Not everything you're hearing is fact, but the emotional energy makes people lose their perspective
    And I'm not suggesting that. What I am suggesting is what any of this has anything to do with either 1)was George defending himself or 2)Did the fathers actions right before or right after lead to his son's death. I don't think either is one is true as the facts are presented right now.

    Look at what I bolded in your quote. The "facts" have been changing over the past few days, and most of these "facts" have appeared only in the media, where there are no legal penalties for lying, misrepresenting, or deliberate distortion. There are also no safeguards for people's changing memories of that night. Until the real facts are established in a court of law, neither you nor I have ANY basis on which to decide on Zimmerman's guilt. Your opinion (above) is based entirely on what the media has told you at any given time. As such, it's pretty worthless.

    All I'm saying is that we know nothing for sure except three things:

    1. Trayvon is dead
    2. Zimmerman shot him
    3. Trayvon did not leave the house during the NBA All Star Game half time. The game began after he died.

    I see that bold, but unless you can provide any "facts" that refute what happened and why then that's all any of us have to go on. So he misjudged the start of the game, His son is dead as he has to answer questions. I can give him a pass on not getting exact times and events correct.

    I'm not claiming George shot him in cold blood. I believe George made a horrible mistake by confronting him and it escalated. He had no right to stop him to begin and 911 told him to wait for the police to get there. You cant claim self defense when the reason you had to pull your weapon in the first place was you starting the conflict to begin with.
    Last edited by Gentleman Pirate; 03-24-2012 at 05:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gentleman Pirate View Post
    I'm not claiming George shot him in cold blood. I believe George made a horrible mistake by confronting him and it escalated. He had no right to stop him to begin and 911 told him to wait for the police to get there. You cant claim self defense when the reason you had to pull your weapon in the first place was you starting the conflict to begin with.
    And this is what it's going to come down to. If Zimmerman is guilty, he will be tried and convicted, however, thanks to the politicizing of this, he will never get a fair trial. His fate is already sealed and it's all in the name of politics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gentleman Pirate View Post
    Ok, I'll use a different term. I still don't see how these "questions" regarding the events right before and right after have anything to do with the moment George saw Trayvon and when Trayvon ended up dead. Everything else is just filler.
    Tracy Martin's lie about when Trayvon left the house goes directly to the veracity of the family. Most people at DU assume the Martin family and their supporters are being entirely truthful. Statements like the "Trayvon left during halftime of the NBA All Star Game" (when he was already dead at the time) and "Trayvon was on a 5-day suspension" (when it was 10 days) are indications that the family is not reliable on facts. Lies often cover up other uncomfortable facts. We don't know what those are, but we are free to question when we find such lies.



    Actually it does. If your conclusions are correct that he didn't check on the status of his son for 12 hours and/or sent him away so he could bang his girlfriend, that proves he is a shitty father.
    That wasn't a conclusion, it was a possibility. There were a number of them. One of them was a fight in which Trayvon voluntarily left the house or was kicked out. Feel free to ignore the speculation; it was simply an illustration of the possibilities that open up when you realize the Martin family and their supporters are misrepresenting or suppressing facts.

    And I'm not suggesting that. What I am suggesting is what any of this has anything to do with either 1)was George defending himself or 2)Did the fathers actions right before or right after lead to his son's death. I don't think either is one is true as the facts are presented right now.
    I disagree, and I'll tell you why. The whole basis of Zimmerman's claim that he was defending himself relies how Trayvon appeared to him and what Trayvon did. So far, the media and the family/supporters are claiming that Trayvon appeared "black" and that was all Zimmerman saw. Hence the Justice Department involvement for hate crimes. However, what Zimmerman actually saw was a 6'3'' 17-year old who clearly could do some physical damage (Zimmerman was bleeding). Zimmerman may have also sensed some violence in the kid, which may not be racist if the kid had been violent before.

    In other words, Zimmerman's perception of danger was based on more than just color. These other factors may have played a part:

    • height (Trayvon was 6'3'')
    • more adult facial features (Trayvon looks more like a man in the only pic we have of him at 17)
    • willingness to approach and confront (Trayvon approaches Zimmerman for a full minute during Zimmerman's call to police dispatch; he then runs)


    If you notice, the family and their supporters (including the media) do their best to undercut ALL of these possible bases of involvement. The media is showing us pictures of Trayvon as a boy. In most of these pics, Trayvon is shorter than his mother, and clearly much younger. The only pic that gives any indication of Trayvon's real height is the football picture, taken when he was 14. These pictures make the argument, "Look how unthreatening Trayvon was. Therefore the shooting was only based on race."

    The media also avoids any suggestion that Trayvon might have been violent at any time. Trayvon approaches Zimmerman as he's on the phone with the cops. That one minute approach is not seen as threatening by the media, even though Zimmerman sounds threatened on the call.

    The family and supporters are not being honest about Trayvon's 10-day suspension from school (verified by the Miami Herald). I have a friend who teaches in the inner city and she has never heard of a 2-week suspension for tardiness or attendance problems. A long suspension indicates something more serious.

    So yes: all of the information we receive plays into the actual shooting since Zimmerman's claim of self-defense rests entirely on his perception of Trayvon as being threatening to his life. Remember, the Florida law is about the belief the a person is shooting in self defense.

    The family, the law firm, the civil rights establishment, and the media are all making the argument that Zimmerman's perception was ludicrous. Ergo, he is a racist.

    But if the media image is wrong (and we already know the photos are misleading), then we get a completely different image, based on the facts we know at this point:

    • Trayvon was practically a man, and looked more like a man than a boy
    • Trayvon was 6'3'', towering over most grown men
    • Trayvon had trouble enough in school to be suspended for 2 weeks (Miami Herald)
    • Trayvon approaches Zimmerman during the phone call for a full minute before running
    • Trayvon injures Zimmerman, who ends up bleeding from his nose and from the back of his head
    • Trayvon's father gives an impossible time for his son to have left the house, indicating that he might not know exactly when his son left (and leading us to question his control or influence with Trayvon)
    • Trayvon's father waits 12-13 hours (overnight) after his son's disappearance to call the police (MSNBC, Politics Nation with Al Sharpton, Mar 21, 2012) indicating that he either didn't know his son was gone, or that he did know but wasn't worried about Trayvon being out overnight.
    • Trayvon's father called the police checking to see "if he had been arrested" (Miami Herald) indicating that this might have happened before or that Trayvon might have been involved in something to cause an arrest.

    Do you see how this information changes our perception of Trayvon? Do you see how it might support Zimmerman's perception and the legality of his shoot?

    That's why all of these facts taken together are important. What Zimmerman's guilt or innocence hinges on (following the Florida law) is whether Zimmerman felt reasonably threatened. To hear the family's "facts", Trayvon was a little boy, completely harmless, and George Zimmerman is a racist. To hear the other facts that have been slowly appearing as more research is being done, Trayvon may not have been that sweet choirboy "majoring in cheerfulness" but a troubled 17-year old with a tendency to get into trouble. Anything that supports the family's picture makes Zimmerman a racist criminal. Anything that supports the contention that Trayvon might have really been threatening makes Zimmerman within his rights in the state of Florida.



    I see that bold, but unless you can provide any "facts" that refute what happened and why then that's all any of us have to go on. So he misjudged the start of the game, His son is dead as he has to answer questions. I can give him a pass on not getting exact times and events correct.
    I just gave you some facts--real ones. These facts do not change the fact that the shooting happened, but they change the perception of why it did. And the "why" is crucial.

    And as far as the father misjudging the time of the game, if you want to "give him a pass" then let me ask you if you also give his lawyers a pass (since they repeat the same story) and if you give the media a pass (since they have reported the same story without doing some basic fact checking.) It takes seconds on Google to find out what time the NBA game was on Feb 26th. If the attorneys bring that story into court, the defense attorney will rip them a new one. So are they just irresponsible or are they repeating the lie for some other reason?

    Like I said, it may be to cover up the fact that the father really has no clue when the kid left the house.


    I'm not claiming George shot him in cold blood. I believe George made a horrible mistake by confronting him and it escalated. He had no right to stop him to begin and 911 told him to wait for the police to get there. You cant claim self defense when the reason you had to pull your weapon in the first place was you starting the conflict to begin with.
    Actually, this is not legally accurate. First, Zimmerman did not talk to a 911 operator. He talked to non-emergency police dispatch. This is why the police did not start arriving on the scene until 7:17, even though Zimmerman called at 7. They had been dispatched through non-emergency.

    Second, a police dispatch operator has no legal authority to stop someone from following a suspect. The dispatch operator can suggest it (for the person's own safety). There is nothing illegal about George Zimmerman continuing to follow Trayvon in his car after the suggestion.

    Third, situations are fluid, and the pursuer--pursued dynamic can change on a dime, and the law recognizes this. So, just because Zimmerman was pursuing Trayvon (as a potential criminal) doesn't mean that Trayvon couldn't turn the situation around and become the pursuer or attacker. In fact, this is what Zimmerman claims happened. After the call with non emergency dispatch, Zimmerman claims that he continued to follow Trayvon in his SUV and that Trayvon approached his SUV and started the fight. You can believe that or not, but there is a witness who saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman in the grass, attacking him, and heard Zimmerman screaming for help. Here again, we'll hopefully get more facts as time goes by and see what the actual sequence of events was. But the sequence itself is important.
    Last edited by Elspeth; 03-24-2012 at 08:17 PM.
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