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  1. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJCardFan View Post
    And this is what it's going to come down to. If Zimmerman is guilty, he will be tried and convicted, however, thanks to the politicizing of this, he will never get a fair trial. His fate is already sealed and it's all in the name of politics.
    That may very well be true.
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  2. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SarasotaRepub View Post
    The President may regret opening his trap on this yet. Obama's handlers may have made a major blunder here...
    That was pretty stupid of him to do. I don't know why he wants to involve himself in every controversial incident that happens in this country. He's supposed to be focusing on solving America's problems.
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  3. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gentleman Pirate View Post
    That was pretty stupid of him to do. I don't know why he wants to involve himself in every controversial incident that happens in this country. He's supposed to be focusing on solving America's problems.
    Not to mention that he's come down on the side of blackness every single time.
    The Obama Administration: Deny. Deflect. Blame.
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  4. #14  
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    If I ever have to shoot someone - and that would be a stretch, since I don't carry a gun - I want Elspeth to defend me.

    It's the same ol crap I heard when I lived in Atlanta during the days of the missing and murdered black children.
    We heard it nightly on the news: "Well, sometimes he stays with (so-and-so), so I just figured that's where he was. Then, after a couple of days......"

    A 17 year old. And no one was responsible enough to know where he was. No one at all. On a Sunday night...Coulda been with his 20 year old relative...
    "I had gone out for dinner," Tracy says. "And when I got home, Trayvon wasn't there. I tried calling his cell phone several times, and it went straight to voicemail. I wasn't that worried because he had been spending time with my 20-year-old nephew who was a responsible young man. There wasn't a panic that he wasn't at home. I figured that they had gone to the movies, because they had said they might. So I laid down, thinking they would show up later."

    Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nationa...#ixzz1q50bfsQN
    Last edited by Starbuck; 03-24-2012 at 07:29 PM.
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  5. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gentleman Pirate View Post
    Ok, I'll use a different term. I still don't see how these "questions" regarding the events right before and right after have anything to do with the moment George saw Trayvon and when Trayvon ended up dead. Everything else is just filler.
    Tracy Martin's lie about when Trayvon left the house goes directly to the veracity of the family. Most people at DU assume the Martin family and their supporters are being entirely truthful. Statements like the "Trayvon left during halftime of the NBA All Star Game" (when he was already dead at the time) and "Trayvon was on a 5-day suspension" (when it was 10 days) are indications that the family is not reliable on facts. Lies often cover up other uncomfortable facts. We don't know what those are, but we are free to question when we find such lies.



    Actually it does. If your conclusions are correct that he didn't check on the status of his son for 12 hours and/or sent him away so he could bang his girlfriend, that proves he is a shitty father.
    That wasn't a conclusion, it was a possibility. There were a number of them. One of them was a fight in which Trayvon voluntarily left the house or was kicked out. Feel free to ignore the speculation; it was simply an illustration of the possibilities that open up when you realize the Martin family and their supporters are misrepresenting or suppressing facts.

    And I'm not suggesting that. What I am suggesting is what any of this has anything to do with either 1)was George defending himself or 2)Did the fathers actions right before or right after lead to his son's death. I don't think either is one is true as the facts are presented right now.
    I disagree, and I'll tell you why. The whole basis of Zimmerman's claim that he was defending himself relies how Trayvon appeared to him and what Trayvon did. So far, the media and the family/supporters are claiming that Trayvon appeared "black" and that was all Zimmerman saw. Hence the Justice Department involvement for hate crimes. However, what Zimmerman actually saw was a 6'3'' 17-year old who clearly could do some physical damage (Zimmerman was bleeding). Zimmerman may have also sensed some violence in the kid, which may not be racist if the kid had been violent before.

    In other words, Zimmerman's perception of danger was based on more than just color. These other factors may have played a part:

    • height (Trayvon was 6'3'')
    • more adult facial features (Trayvon looks more like a man in the only pic we have of him at 17)
    • willingness to approach and confront (Trayvon approaches Zimmerman for a full minute during Zimmerman's call to police dispatch; he then runs)


    If you notice, the family and their supporters (including the media) do their best to undercut ALL of these possible bases of involvement. The media is showing us pictures of Trayvon as a boy. In most of these pics, Trayvon is shorter than his mother, and clearly much younger. The only pic that gives any indication of Trayvon's real height is the football picture, taken when he was 14. These pictures make the argument, "Look how unthreatening Trayvon was. Therefore the shooting was only based on race."

    The media also avoids any suggestion that Trayvon might have been violent at any time. Trayvon approaches Zimmerman as he's on the phone with the cops. That one minute approach is not seen as threatening by the media, even though Zimmerman sounds threatened on the call.

    The family and supporters are not being honest about Trayvon's 10-day suspension from school (verified by the Miami Herald). I have a friend who teaches in the inner city and she has never heard of a 2-week suspension for tardiness or attendance problems. A long suspension indicates something more serious.

    So yes: all of the information we receive plays into the actual shooting since Zimmerman's claim of self-defense rests entirely on his perception of Trayvon as being threatening to his life. Remember, the Florida law is about the belief the a person is shooting in self defense.

    The family, the law firm, the civil rights establishment, and the media are all making the argument that Zimmerman's perception was ludicrous. Ergo, he is a racist.

    But if the media image is wrong (and we already know the photos are misleading), then we get a completely different image, based on the facts we know at this point:

    • Trayvon was practically a man, and looked more like a man than a boy
    • Trayvon was 6'3'', towering over most grown men
    • Trayvon had trouble enough in school to be suspended for 2 weeks (Miami Herald)
    • Trayvon approaches Zimmerman during the phone call for a full minute before running
    • Trayvon injures Zimmerman, who ends up bleeding from his nose and from the back of his head
    • Trayvon's father gives an impossible time for his son to have left the house, indicating that he might not know exactly when his son left (and leading us to question his control or influence with Trayvon)
    • Trayvon's father waits 12-13 hours (overnight) after his son's disappearance to call the police (MSNBC, Politics Nation with Al Sharpton, Mar 21, 2012) indicating that he either didn't know his son was gone, or that he did know but wasn't worried about Trayvon being out overnight.
    • Trayvon's father called the police checking to see "if he had been arrested" (Miami Herald) indicating that this might have happened before or that Trayvon might have been involved in something to cause an arrest.

    Do you see how this information changes our perception of Trayvon? Do you see how it might support Zimmerman's perception and the legality of his shoot?

    That's why all of these facts taken together are important. What Zimmerman's guilt or innocence hinges on (following the Florida law) is whether Zimmerman felt reasonably threatened. To hear the family's "facts", Trayvon was a little boy, completely harmless, and George Zimmerman is a racist. To hear the other facts that have been slowly appearing as more research is being done, Trayvon may not have been that sweet choirboy "majoring in cheerfulness" but a troubled 17-year old with a tendency to get into trouble. Anything that supports the family's picture makes Zimmerman a racist criminal. Anything that supports the contention that Trayvon might have really been threatening makes Zimmerman within his rights in the state of Florida.



    I see that bold, but unless you can provide any "facts" that refute what happened and why then that's all any of us have to go on. So he misjudged the start of the game, His son is dead as he has to answer questions. I can give him a pass on not getting exact times and events correct.
    I just gave you some facts--real ones. These facts do not change the fact that the shooting happened, but they change the perception of why it did. And the "why" is crucial.

    And as far as the father misjudging the time of the game, if you want to "give him a pass" then let me ask you if you also give his lawyers a pass (since they repeat the same story) and if you give the media a pass (since they have reported the same story without doing some basic fact checking.) It takes seconds on Google to find out what time the NBA game was on Feb 26th. If the attorneys bring that story into court, the defense attorney will rip them a new one. So are they just irresponsible or are they repeating the lie for some other reason?

    Like I said, it may be to cover up the fact that the father really has no clue when the kid left the house.


    I'm not claiming George shot him in cold blood. I believe George made a horrible mistake by confronting him and it escalated. He had no right to stop him to begin and 911 told him to wait for the police to get there. You cant claim self defense when the reason you had to pull your weapon in the first place was you starting the conflict to begin with.
    Actually, this is not legally accurate. First, Zimmerman did not talk to a 911 operator. He talked to non-emergency police dispatch. This is why the police did not start arriving on the scene until 7:17, even though Zimmerman called at 7. They had been dispatched through non-emergency.

    Second, a police dispatch operator has no legal authority to stop someone from following a suspect. The dispatch operator can suggest it (for the person's own safety). There is nothing illegal about George Zimmerman continuing to follow Trayvon in his car after the suggestion.

    Third, situations are fluid, and the pursuer--pursued dynamic can change on a dime, and the law recognizes this. So, just because Zimmerman was pursuing Trayvon (as a potential criminal) doesn't mean that Trayvon couldn't turn the situation around and become the pursuer or attacker. In fact, this is what Zimmerman claims happened. After the call with non emergency dispatch, Zimmerman claims that he continued to follow Trayvon in his SUV and that Trayvon approached his SUV and started the fight. You can believe that or not, but there is a witness who saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman in the grass, attacking him, and heard Zimmerman screaming for help. Here again, we'll hopefully get more facts as time goes by and see what the actual sequence of events was. But the sequence itself is important.
    Last edited by Elspeth; 03-24-2012 at 08:17 PM.
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  6. #16  
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    I'll withhold my final judgement until all the facts are out, but the 9-11 tapes don't look good for Zimmerman especially the one where Trayvon called his girlfriend saying this guy is following him. That doesn't seem like a "stand your ground" situation, but time will tell.
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  7. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck View Post
    If I ever have to shoot someone - and that would be a stretch, since I don't carry a gun - I want Elspeth to defend me.
    I am sure you would never hurt someone unless it really were self-defense.

    And WHAT A FIND!!

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nationa...#ixzz1q50bfsQN

    "I had gone out for dinner," Tracy says. "And when I got home, Trayvon wasn't there. I tried calling his cell phone several times, and it went straight to voicemail. I wasn't that worried because he had been spending time with my 20-year-old nephew who was a responsible young man. There wasn't a panic that he wasn't at home. I figured that they had gone to the movies, because they had said they might. So I laid down, thinking they would show up later."
    So he left the kid alone in the house. The kid leaves at some point (we don't know when). Martin and his lawyers keep pounding that NBA story, even though Trayvon was dead before the game started.

    OK, Gentleman Pirate, what say you?

    Now, we have to track down exactly when he left, how long he was out, and where he went.


    It's the same ol crap I heard when I lived in Atlanta during the days of the missing and murdered black children.
    We heard it nightly on the news: "Well, sometimes he stays with (so-and-so), so I just figured that's where he was. Then, after a couple of days......"

    A 17 year old. And no one was responsible enough to know where he was. No one at all. On a Sunday night...Coulda been with his 20 year old relative...
    That's what they mean when they say, "It takes a village." No one keeps track of the kids.

    Trayvon was on a 2-week suspension. For what we don't know, but it can't have been a small thing. Is that the kind of kid you leave alone in the house?
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  8. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    So he left the kid alone in the house. The kid leaves at some point (we don't know when). Martin and his lawyers keep pounding that NBA story, even though Trayvon was dead before the game started.

    OK, Gentleman Pirate, what say you?

    Now, we have to track down exactly when he left, how long he was out, and where he went.
    I still say the same thing. This has nothing to do with what Trayvon or his family were or weren't doing before and after his death. This entire case rests on did George go beyond self defense when he shot and killed this kid. What were the circumstances from when George saw him to when Trayvon was shot. Everything else is just noise to confuse the situation.

    This is about George's actions and what lead up to them, not about Trayvon's dad.

    We will have to agree to disagree and see how this turns out. Either way, two lives are ruined forever.
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  9. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gentleman Pirate View Post
    I still say the same thing. This has nothing to do with what Trayvon or his family were or weren't doing before and after his death. This entire case rests on did George go beyond self defense when he shot and killed this kid. What were the circumstances from when George saw him to when Trayvon was shot. Everything else is just noise to confuse the situation.

    This is about George's actions and what lead up to them, not about Trayvon's dad.

    We will have to agree to disagree and see how this turns out. Either way, two lives are ruined forever.
    It goes to the veracity of the family and their supporters who are bringing up the charges. They are lying to suit their purposes. That speaks volumes. If you have to lie to make your case, then you probably don't have a very good one.

    And as far as George Zimmerman goes, he's not a clean slate. But all he has to prove is that he felt his life was in danger. That's what the law says. If the NRA throws him over for PR purposes, then they are every bit as bad as Al Sharpton, Eric Holder, and Obama.
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  10. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swampfox View Post
    I'll withhold my final judgement until all the facts are out, but the 9-11 tapes don't look good for Zimmerman especially the one where Trayvon called his girlfriend saying this guy is following him. That doesn't seem like a "stand your ground" situation, but time will tell.
    So Trayvon's girlfriend worked for 911?
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