Thread: Polygamy, Too

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  1. #21  
    Senior Member Zeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Articulate_Ape View Post
    Still black on dark gray to me, but I highlighted it and it looks like an outdated article, but I don't know because you linked to no citation. I'm not asking you to trust me. Why would you? I did, however, at least cite the statistical claims I was making. It's up to you whether you believe them or not. Not my problem.
    My Mistake. When you posted 'Trust Me" I actually thought you meant 'Trust me".

    The studies and sources are referenced thoughout the article "Trust me".
    The 21st century. The age of Smart phones and Stupid people.

    It is said that branches draw their life from the vine. Each is separate yet all are one as they share one life giving stem . The Bible tells us we are called to a similar union in life, our lives with the life of God. We are incorporated into him; made sharers in his life. Apart from this union we can do nothing.
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  2. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Polygamy is traditional marriage in non-western cultures. It hasn't been traditional in western cultures since the rise of Christianity.
    Which western cultures embraced polygamy prior to the rise of Christianity?


    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    And today, gay marriage is opening the door to polygamy.
    How can you maintain that marriage equality for gay people opens the door to polygamy? Was Oneida gay? Were the Mormons gay? Were the American Indians gay? Are the Muslims who have brought their wives to the US with them gay? Are the men who have children by many women gay? Are the serial divorcees gay?
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  3. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Which western cultures embraced polygamy prior to the rise of Christianity?
    Polygamy occurred among the Celtic peoples, the Judeans, the early Greeks and the Germanic and Gallic tribes of Europe. The classical Greeks were only permitted to marry one woman at a time, as were the Romans. Concubinage was common, until the rise of Christianity made it a form of fornication.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    How can you maintain that marriage equality for gay people opens the door to polygamy? Was Oneida gay? Were the Mormons gay? Were the American Indians gay? Are the Muslims who have brought their wives to the US with them gay? Are the men who have children by many women gay? Are the serial divorcees gay?
    First, let's dispense with the term "marriage equality". Gays had the same marriage rights as straights. They could marry any person of the opposite sex who would consent to it. What gays sought was to redefine marriage so as to lend the state's sanction to their relationships with their own sexes. That redefinition of marriage threw out centuries of understanding of what a marriage was and is, and substituted the latest cultural fads. It transformed marriage from a specific relationship between a man and a woman to a nebulous relationship which can be redefined at will, provided the activists have sufficient money, time and intensity. Once the status of marriage changed to a "civil rights" and equality issue, it became easy for other groups to demand the same "equality". Thus, if our laws discriminated against the gay man who wanted to marry his partner, then they also discriminated against the man who wanted to marry several women. When you break the dam, you no longer control what will come in with the flood.
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  4. #24  
    PORCUS MAXIMUS Rockntractor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Polygamy occurred among the Celtic peoples, the Judeans, the early Greeks and the Germanic and Gallic tribes of Europe. The classical Greeks were only permitted to marry one woman at a time, as were the Romans. Concubinage was common, until the rise of Christianity made it a form of fornication.



    First, let's dispense with the term "marriage equality". Gays had the same marriage rights as straights. They could marry any person of the opposite sex who would consent to it. What gays sought was to redefine marriage so as to lend the state's sanction to their relationships with their own sexes. That redefinition of marriage threw out centuries of understanding of what a marriage was and is, and substituted the latest cultural fads. It transformed marriage from a specific relationship between a man and a woman to a nebulous relationship which can be redefined at will, provided the activists have sufficient money, time and intensity. Once the status of marriage changed to a "civil rights" and equality issue, it became easy for other groups to demand the same "equality". Thus, if our laws discriminated against the gay man who wanted to marry his partner, then they also discriminated against the man who wanted to marry several women. When you break the dam, you no longer control what will come in with the flood.
    Nova see's it as one man with four wives = three more men with him in the hot tub.
    The difference between pigs and people is that when they tell you you're cured it isn't a good thing.
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  5. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockntractor View Post
    Nova see's it as one man with four wives = three more men with him in the hot tub.
    Nova has no historical romantic fantasies. Life before soap, toothpaste, indoor plumbing, air conditioning, and anti-biotics is not sexy.
    Last edited by Novaheart; 04-20-2012 at 12:31 PM.
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  6. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Once the status of marriage changed to a "civil rights" and equality issue, it became easy for other groups to demand the same "equality".
    Was it constitutional for the Congress to require the Mormon Church to cease and denounce their sacrament of polygamy as a condition of statehood for Utah?
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    Senior Member Generation Why?'s Avatar
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    1. There are laws against polygamy.
    2. Those laws are not really relevant, being that they get circumvented as it is through non-legally binding ceremonies.
    3. That doesn't affect me. If Mohammed or Hiram wants to have 4 wives and only one is his legally binding wife, who cares? I don't lose any sleep over it. The other three wives are religiously married to him. Big deal. That, is not illegal, because he is only legally married once.
    4. Gay marriage doesn't bother me either. Once again, I am not losing sleep over Seth and Steve tying the knot.
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  8. #28  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Was it constitutional for the Congress to require the Mormon Church to cease and denounce their sacrament of polygamy as a condition of statehood for Utah?
    Congress didn't order the church to end its sacrament. The church recognized that polygamy was an impediment to statehood, and banned it by itself. It took several attempts after the civil and ecclesiastical bans for congress to approve statehood. However, the congress could have compelled the legislature to ban polygamy as a condition of statehood, regardless of church practice. The Constitution gives congress the authority to regulate the laws of territories, and to determine which territories will become states.
    Article IV - The States
    Section 3

    Clause 1:
    New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.
    Clause 2:
    The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.
    The rules of the territory were therefore congress' domain. The vote for statehood required that a congressional majority support the bill, and that took the LDS church's willingness to live by the laws of the rest of the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by Generation Why? View Post
    1. There are laws against polygamy.
    There were laws against same-sex marriage, or at least laws recognizing a marriage as being between a man and a woman.
    Quote Originally Posted by Generation Why? View Post
    2. Those laws are not really relevant, being that they get circumvented as it is through non-legally binding ceremonies.
    The operative phrase is non-legally binding. It's only when the state is compelled to recognize those ceremonies as legally binding that it becomes an issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Generation Why? View Post
    3. That doesn't affect me. If Mohammed or Hiram wants to have 4 wives and only one is his legally binding wife, who cares? I don't lose any sleep over it. The other three wives are religiously married to him. Big deal. That, is not illegal, because he is only legally married once.
    So, you're okay with the state providing recognition of those marriages? Extending welfare payments? Allowing chain immigration to polygamous spouses? The implications go far beyond simply saying, "it's not my problem," because it becomes your problem when the state takes a role.
    Quote Originally Posted by Generation Why? View Post
    4. Gay marriage doesn't bother me either. Once again, I am not losing sleep over Seth and Steve tying the knot.
    Now that Seth and Steve can tie the knot, Seth and Stephanie and Samantha and Sheila want their relationship to be granted the same status. Do they have the same right to state sanction? Whose kids take precedence when Seth kicks the bucket? If Seth and Stephanie grow apart, does Stephanie's community property include Samantha's and Sheila's holdings? If Seth and Steve want a third man to live with them, does the state have an obligation to recognize their triad as a marriage?
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  9. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Now that Seth and Steve can tie the knot, Seth and Stephanie and Samantha and Sheila want their relationship to be granted the same status. Do they have the same right to state sanction? Whose kids take precedence when Seth kicks the bucket? If Seth and Stephanie grow apart, does Stephanie's community property include Samantha's and Sheila's holdings? If Seth and Steve want a third man to live with them, does the state have an obligation to recognize their triad as a marriage?
    Seth and Steve getting married has nothing to do with polygamy. Doesn't inspire it, doesn't open the door to it, none of your business actually.

    As for benefits- most welfare benefits are targeted at children, so the children of Seth and his now third wife aren't any different before the law than they are for Ody and his sequential third wife.

    Inheritance might need some work, but then it already needs some work. AS it is, if Ody dies without a will, his former wife and children by her are screwed as long as his now wife lives. Unless I am mistaken, his now wife gets his entire estate and survivor benefits. I hate to say this, but I think the Koran actually lays this one out pretty fairly.
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  10. #30  
    PORCUS MAXIMUS Rockntractor's Avatar
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    Never name a child Steve!
    The difference between pigs and people is that when they tell you you're cured it isn't a good thing.
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