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  1. #41  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    There's two interesting things I noticed in this thread.
    That's two more than we usually find in any thread that you contribute to.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    1. There is an argument that our society being too much of a "me" society is dangerous. The argument is that no one is an island, and that policies affect society as a whole. There is an implicit idea that we, as members of this society, need to think beyond our own selves and consider what is good for the society we live in, if we want to continue to benefit from living in a prosperous society.

    You claim that allowing gay marriage will undermine moral principles and social constructs which benefit our society, and with these social institutions changing, the end result will be detrimental to all of us.

    Now I don't agree with that conclusion, but I hope you can agree that I've followed your logic correctly.
    No, you haven't. The issue is that marriage is a critical institution to any society. Redefining it to suit the whims of the moment undermines it and opens the floodgates to a chaotic culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    What I have an issue with, is a stark inconsistency with arguments I've seen countless times over on other issues, such as health care or education. Over and over I hear people say "why should I pay for public education if I don't have kids or if my kids don't go to public school?". Doesn't the same line of logic apply here: education is a public good that benefits the society as a whole that your family lives in. Rather than simply thinking of yourself, you should think beyond your own nose and support institutions that benefit all of us, if you want to your children to live in a functional society.

    As for health care, the same thing applies: "why should I have to pay for someone else's health care? I have my own health care from my job". Again, as a society, health institutions benefit all of us since we can only function in relation to one another.

    I'm curious how the people who advocate this line of logic reconcile this apparent inconsistency.
    There is no inconsistency. You are taking two things that have nothing to do with each other and creating a false connection. Public education is bad policy because it is a state attempt at monopolizing education, and because it undermines the prerogatives of parents to supervise the education of their children, while empowering a permanent education establishment whose sole interest is the perpetuation of its own perks. Publicly-run health care is bad policy because it imposes government between doctors and patients. Both are also bad policy because they start with the false but pernicious assumption that government can manage transactions better than the people who engage in them. Believing that gay marriage isn't marriage does not disqualify someone from believing that government should not be in the business of dictating education or health care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    2. The justification for the argument that gay marriage will harm society seems to be as follows:
    Kids need a good family life when they are young.
    If they do not have a good family life, they are more likely to miss out on character-building foundations that will allow them to be responsible, functional adults.
    The model for a good family life is the Nuclear Family.
    The further one deviates from this ideal Nuclear Family, the worse the childhood conditions will be for raising a proper adult.
    Note: While not everyone from a good nuclear family will grow up to be a proper adult, and while not everyone from a broken home or alternative family structure will grow up to be a criminal deviant, it is safe to say that the odds are more likely in that respect.

    Have I followed this line of logic correctly?
    No. Children benefit from having a mother and a father. They are not interchangeable. Gay marriage is simply another assault on the institution, for the purpose of undermining it. The progressive's endstate is not gay marriage, but no marriage. Since they began attacking the institution, through the introduction of no-fault divorce, feminism, sexual promiscuity and varying alternative lifestyles, marriage has deteriorated. More marriages end in divorce, illegitimacy rates have exploded and more children have grown up in poverty. This, of course, spurs more demands for day care, child welfare programs, school lunch programs, and a host of other welfare state initiatives that put the state in the position of surrogate parent. Gay marriage is an incremental step in the road to the end of marriage as we have always understood it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    If so, I've spotted another inconsistency. On the issue of welfare reform, many conservatives state that it is important for single mothers to work if they want to receive government assistance. This brings up a tricky situation: if a single mother is poor, forcing her to work in order to get assistance means her child or children will have less parental support in their formative years. In this case, some right-wingers support separating a child from their mother to make sure the mother isn't getting a "free-ride". They think teaching the mother a lesson is more important than the child having a parent at home with them. Don't conservatives who see the extreme important value of parental structure see how these policies may result in poorly-reared children who grow up to be maladjusted adults?
    You keep pretending that people are not rational actors, and attributing morality to economics. The simple fact is that when you subsidize something, you get more of it. If you subsidize single motherhood, you get more single mothers, and more children being raised by dysfunctional single parents. A single mother who knows that she will be taken care of by the state has no incentive not to become a single mother. In fact, in the ghetto culture, there is a strong desire to have children so that a girl can become independent of her own mother (her dependence on the state doesn't register, since everyone that she sees who isn't dependent on the state has been presented as an enemy). The dissolution of family creates a demand for services from the ever-expanding state. They replace fathers with government.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    Generally speaking "hot button issues" get a lot of publicity and people are well aware of what the bills are.

    Issues like "prop 8" and "prop 19" in their respective states get enough publicity that generally "vote yes on prop #" is enough to get the point across without a manifesto stapled to the sign.

    What is there to hide?

    That's like saying phrases like "support the 2nd amendment" are trying to hide something because they don't say "I want to walk around carrying a gun on my hip like I'm in an old Clint Eastwood movie"
    Except that when we say "Support the Second Amendment", we are saying support the right to keep and bear arms, and everybody who has a passing acquaintance with the Constitution knows this. Those who don't know it are presumably too ignorant to be voting on the issue, but we know that this doesn't stop anyone. However, saying "Vote No on Prop One" without stating what Prop One is, especially since Prop One on this ballot isn't the same as Prop One on the last one. It's the left that has to hide its intent with euphemisms and abstractions. We're perfectly happy to speak plainly.
    --Odysseus
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  2. #42  
    Senior Member Zeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wei Wu Wei View Post
    Whoa now this is just a wild accusation. Do you have some evidence for this claim?



    How about this, if a person is receiving welfare, they should be required to take job training classes or do volunteer work. However, these volunteer hours and classes should be at flexible schedules (changable hours, night classes, etc) to allow parents to raise their children.

    I would even support optional pro-family parenting classes, nutrition classes, and other information sources that would help parents raise their kids better.

    The tricky part is requiring people to do things that will take them away from their kids.

    Another option, if you really want parents to work to receive welfare (I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of people having to work for benefits. I agree that sitting in your butt and getting welfare checks is not a good thing), is to have government-funded daycare centers for their children. This would be costly, but if the theory holds that making people work for welfare will ultimately result in less people on welfare, it should pay for itself. Not to mention the next generation of kids having better upbringing opportunities, so they have a better chance of not needing welfare when they grow up.




    There is an inconsistency as it is normally presented, but with some modifications, those inconsistencies are fixed and I can get behind it fully.
    The evidence is all around you and on the nightly news etc.

    Pre-K programs, After school programs etc. there are plenty of free outlets available for single mothers to have their children taken care of so they can work.

    Also a plethora of programs/classes such as parenting ,financial planning , budgeting , cooking , nutrition etc that are low cost/free in pretty much any community out there. lots of these classes provide free/low cost daycare to attendees.

    EIC tax credit will pay for most of if not all of the daycare costs for a working mother.

    The excuses are unfounded they just need to get off their lazy behind and do something for the betterment of self,their children and their community at large.
    The 21st century. The age of Smart phones and Stupid people.

    It is said that branches draw their life from the vine. Each is separate yet all are one as they share one life giving stem . The Bible tells us we are called to a similar union in life, our lives with the life of God. We are incorporated into him; made sharers in his life. Apart from this union we can do nothing.
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  3. #43  
    Senior Member Apache's Avatar
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    I'm still waiting...





    Gen Why, Lanie....
    Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem.
    Ronald Reagan

    We could say they are spending like drunken sailors. That would be unfair to drunken sailors, they're spending their OWN money.
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  4. #44  
    Power CUer NJCardFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apache View Post
    I'm still waiting...





    Gen Why, Lanie....
    You're not going to get a response. Lanie, like all libs, like to cherry pick verses out of the Bible then misquote them to make their point but when called out on it, they run like scared sheep. It's like the argument concerning Jesus. Blacks like to bring up the line in Revelations about His hair being like wool and his feet like brass in an attempt to show that Christ was a person of color, however, they don't give you the whole verse that talks about His hair being WHITE like wool and how his feet SHONE like fine brass. No color is given, just what John describes.
    The Obama Administration: Deny. Deflect. Blame.
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  5. #45  
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJCardFan View Post
    You're not going to get a response. Lanie, like all libs, like to cherry pick verses out of the Bible then misquote them to make their point but when called out on it, they run like scared sheep. It's like the argument concerning Jesus. Blacks like to bring up the line in Revelations about His hair being like wool and his feet like brass in an attempt to show that Christ was a person of color, however, they don't give you the whole verse that talks about His hair being WHITE like wool and how his feet SHONE like fine brass. No color is given, just what John describes.
    And if you embarass her too much when you call her out...she'll start a Fight Club thread about you asking "why do you call yourself a Christian"?

    In Memory Of My Friend 1st Sgt. Tim Millsap A Co, 70th Eng. Bn. 3rd Bde 1st AD...K.I.A. 25 April 2005

    Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

    To Achieve Ordered Liberty You Must Have Moral Order As Well

    The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.
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  6. #46  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus View Post
    Whether you know it or not,am willing to admit it or not, the disintegration of the nuclear family has already had an affect on you and everyone in society. I fail to grasp the Ideology that what happens beyond the end of ones nose has no effect on them. The Moral underpinnings of a civil society are rotting away all in the name of if it feels good do it.
    The disintegration of the nuclear family, more accurately of SOME nuclear families, has nothing whatsoever to do with gay rights or gay marriage. Nope! That one can be placed fair and square where the blame belongs: heterosexuals who get married and divorced left and right.

    Heather already had two mommies, her mother and her stepmother.... long before same sex marriage was legal in any state.
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  7. #47  
    Senior Member Zeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    The disintegration of the nuclear family, more accurately of SOME nuclear families, has nothing whatsoever to do with gay rights or gay marriage. Nope! That one can be placed fair and square where the blame belongs: heterosexuals who get married and divorced left and right.

    Heather already had two mommies, her mother and her stepmother.... long before same sex marriage was legal in any state.
    Well of course it's heterosexuals for now,If it's broke why break it more,fix it.
    The 21st century. The age of Smart phones and Stupid people.

    It is said that branches draw their life from the vine. Each is separate yet all are one as they share one life giving stem . The Bible tells us we are called to a similar union in life, our lives with the life of God. We are incorporated into him; made sharers in his life. Apart from this union we can do nothing.
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  8. #48  
    Senior Member Generation Why?'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apache View Post
    I'm still waiting...





    Gen Why, Lanie....
    Was at the range all yesterday. A response is forthcoming.
    A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. Ayn Rand

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  9. #49  
    Senior Member Generation Why?'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apache View Post
    I will never accept homosexuality.An amendment, a law, a whatever doesn't make homosexuality normal or acceptable. It is deviant AND a sin... period!
    Ok, it's a sin in youe eyes, and the eyes of many. So what. If there is a God and being gay is a sin, then they are going to hell. Move on.
    A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. Ayn Rand

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  10. #50  
    Senior Member Generation Why?'s Avatar
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    And why exactly is it that you "Absolutely will not accept homosexuality" to paraphrase? That would be like denouncing the moon: whether you accept it or not, it's there.
    A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. Ayn Rand

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