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  1. #91  
    Sonnabend
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    Maybe those sorry Israeli sonofabitches will have to spend $2000 a year on their defense. Maybe the Poles will have to establish their own defense perimeter without the help of the US 1st Armored Division.. Maybe the South Koreans will have to stand up the North Korean army themselves. Maybe Japan and Australia will have to form an alliance to protect their own interest in the Pacific. Maybe all these countries will have to take on more personal responsibility for their own defense instead of having the American taxpayer do it for them.





    Last edited by Sonnabend; 09-20-2008 at 12:05 AM.
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  2. #92  
    Senior Member marinejcksn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gator View Post
    Our Air Force is falling apart nowadays.
    In terms of what exactly though? I deal with a lot of cargo aircraft. If we're talking about the C-5, yeah that DEFINITELY needs to be replaced, although it's an amazing aircraft that can hold 36 pallets of gear it friggin breaks down all the time (and in the coolest countries, although I'm sure the pilots have NOTHING to do with that;) ). But the C-17 is an awesome piece of equipment that can support so much. Also, have you seen the F-22 Raptor? No jet on the planet can keep up with that thing...we've got the skies controlled if we continue to build fighters like that. The nearest competitor is years away from being completed.
    "Don't vote. It only encourages the bastards." -PJ O'Roarke
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  3. #93  
    Sonnabend
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  4. #94  
    Sonnabend
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    Maybe Japan and Australia will have to form an alliance to protect their own interest in the Pacific
    Kiss all trade with half the world goodbye.

    Forever.
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  5. #95  
    Senior Member marinejcksn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
    Al Qaeda is reeeeal patient.
    I second that. Look what's happening now in Iraq. At first the insurgent strategy was to keep bombing US troops every day, giving the American people reason to say pull our troops out now and they figured if they killed more and more of us eventually the public would turn against us until we pulled everyone out, like Vietnam.

    Then along came the surge, and we kicked their ass back to the stone age. Now, rather then create chaos every day what do they do? Largely nothing...I really think they're biding their time until we leave, at which point they'll attack this place en mass.
    "Don't vote. It only encourages the bastards." -PJ O'Roarke
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  6. #96  
    Senior Member NonConformist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnabend View Post
    Kiss all trade with half the world goodbye.

    Forever.

    Not gonna happen! If America stopped buying, or they stopped selling, Japan, China and other would go tits up. They NEED our economy.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt




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  7. #97  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    He has repeatedly stated that Jews in America are disloyal to the United States, that those of us who do not share his view of politics are dishonest and corrupt. This is not simply a hatred of Israel, but a slander against Jews.

    He is an antisemite, whether I say it or not, so I might as well say it.

    Gator is also woefully ignorant about a number of subjects, but history, and especially Middle Eastern history, is a particular blind spot for him, but sadly, he is not the only one here who is looking at a snapshot of the Middle East and projecting it back over centuries. First, he assumes that Moslems do not seek global conquest. This is patently false. Their doctrine demands universal submission to the will of Allah as defined in the Koran. This is not simply proselytizing, but engaging in coercive, violent conquest. The attacks on non-Moslems who oppose their agendas, the murders of Theo Van Gogh and Pym Fortuin in Holland, the fatwas against cartoonists and writers who speak of them with anything less than reverent awe, these should be proof enough, but if not, then certainly, the writings of the radicals themselves, from the Moslem Brotherhood to Ayatollah Khomeini, which routinely speak of the violent subjugation of non-Moslems, especially Christians and Jews, should be obvious proof. To pretend otherwise is to deny the obvious, but Gator is good at that.

    His second claim is that we are hated for our support of Israel. He cannot, however, explain Arab hatred of Israel in 1948, when combined Arab armies, including those from nations that had no border with Israel or reason for direct conflict, sought to "drive the Jews into the sea." He also will not address the fact that the refugees from 1948 were kept in camps, not by the Israelis, but by their Arab brethren, who refused to assimilate them, even as they expelled an equal number of Jews from their countries. He also is unaware of the broad scope of Islamic conflicts with the US, which go back to Barbary Pirate War, and the jihadist mindset that made that conflict inevitable. But, equally important, he is completely unaware of the writings of the Islamists that predate both the establishment of Israel and the US entry into Middle Eastern politics, all of which cite the US as the greatest threat to Islam in the world, not because of our policies towards a nation that did not as yet exist, but because of the Islamists' shock and outrage at what they considered our immorality by the standards of their creed. Sayyid Qutb, one of the seminal Islamist authors and the driving force behind the Moslem Brotherhood, considered us primitive and "shocking" and wrote of his brief time in the US in the late 1940s, with disgust at our materialism, individual freedom, economic system, restrictions on divorce, enthusiasm for sports and "animal-like" mixing of the sexes (which went on even in churches). One quote sums him up:

    "the American girl is well acquainted with her body's seductive capacity. She knows it lies in the face, and in expressive eyes, and thirsty lips. She knows seductiveness lies in the round breasts, the full buttocks, and in the shapely thighs, sleek legs ó and she shows all this and does not hide it."
    These are the same strains that run through all Islamist doctrine, and no matter what we do, we cannot eliminate this aspect of our image from the world. Our movies, TV shows, music and other pop cultural exports would still outrage the Islamists, and unlike our military, there is no way to prevent the movement of our culture. This conflict, which began for us at the shores of Tripoli (but began for the rest of the world far earlier than that), will not end with the nuclear destruction of Tel Aviv by Iran, or the sack of Jerusalem, because Israel isn't a cause of the conflict, it's a symptom. It is a clash of cultures, between a culture based on the enlightenment ideals of the equality of individuals before the law, the rights to govern oneself, to speak freely, own property and mind one's own business, against a culture of medievel misogyny, repression, tribal conflict and squalor. If Tel Aviv had never existed, if no Jew had survived the gas chambers to make it to Israel, if no American weapon had ever been sent to the Middle East, we would still be hated by the Islamists, just as we were hated by the Soviets, the Nazis and every other nation that sought to bind its people through ignorance, hatred and fear, and we would continue to have to fight to survive in the world, because freedom is an affront to tyranny, and the Islam of the radicals is no less a tyranny than those other nations, and we will always have to defend against it, even if it is halfway around the world.

    Gator ignores these inconvenient facts because they take away the rationale for his abject, obsessive hatred of Israel. The antiwar left echos this because they, like the communists, fascists and Islamists, loathe our freedoms and seek to subjugate their neighbors. The misguided Libertarians who seek isolation from the rest of the world cannot isolate the world from us, and so long as we are the richest, most powerful nation in the world, we will attract the fear, envy and hatred of the states that cannot do what we have done, and they will scapegoat us for their failures. We will be the object of their envious hatred so long as we live in skyscrapers and they live in caves. That is the most basic theme of Ayn Rand's Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, and if Libertarians cannot grasp that, then they are truly missing the point of one of their greatest influences. As for those in Europe who seek to humble us, theirs is the saddest plight. Declining in every way, they seek to regain their former glory, not through achievement or noble action, but through the frustration of the achievements of others. A few generations from now, when their children are paying the Dhimmi tax and bowing and scraping in the gutters before the Moslem majority, they will curse their parents with every lash on their backs.

    Understand this, because I'm tired of trying to make this point to people on a conservative forum, people who ought to get this. I expect liberals not to grasp the basic facts of the world, but not my fellow conservatives. The world will not go away because we turn away from it. It will not suddenly decide that we are wonderful, lovely people if we withdraw to our borders and hide. The haters, the malcontents, the fanatics, the nationalists and the thugs will sense, not our kindness or wish to be loved, but our weakness and fear, and they will pursue us, not to the ends of the Earth, but to the centers of our cities, to wreak their terrible vengeance upon us for having shown them a future that they could not make for themselves.

    That is the lesson of 9/11.

    Gator has forgotten it, if he ever knew it.

    I haven't.

    And I won't.

    What makes you think that a lot of Democrats don't get this (other than DU)? The only difference I can see is that the Democrats want to put a prettier, humanitarian face on this harsh realpolitick but we're talking about the same thing. The current crop of Democrats is being vilified on DU as being spineless because they continue to fund this war and don't force Bush to bring the troops home immediately. Oh, there is some grandstanding for public consumption--a throwing of breadcrumbs to the left base--but make no mistake: neither Pelosi nor Reid nor most of the Dems in Congress really want to end this war.

    Now I do agree with gator on one point: wars are godawful expensive. And war debt is the surest way to hamstring a nation and even to bring down rulers. There is no prize for coming in second in a war, and every bit of available cash is invested in trying to win; it reminds me of gambling at the casino, with more and more money being dumped into a winner take all game.

    Wars are expensive in terms of dollars, life and limb, and that is why it is necessary to be strategic in choosing the wars and in deciding how to fund them at the beginning. This is my chief beef with Rumsfeld (other than his stupid "henny penny" remarks): he underfunded and undermanned the effort in the beginning. Various generals told him what it would take for the war in Iraq, and when they were truthful about the amount of manpower and cost, they were asked to resign. This administration surrounded itself with yes-men so they could do this war "on the cheap." Unfortunately for Rumsfeld, nobody gets a prize for being economical in a war that doesn't go well. Then, if you really want to win, you end up dumping in a lot more cash than you would have originally. (And this doesn't even include the general greed of defense contractors.)
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  8. #98  
    gator
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinejcksn View Post
    In terms of what exactly though? I deal with a lot of cargo aircraft. If we're talking about the C-5, yeah that DEFINITELY needs to be replaced, although it's an amazing aircraft that can hold 36 pallets of gear it friggin breaks down all the time (and in the coolest countries, although I'm sure the pilots have NOTHING to do with that;) ). But the C-17 is an awesome piece of equipment that can support so much. Also, have you seen the F-22 Raptor? No jet on the planet can keep up with that thing...we've got the skies controlled if we continue to build fighters like that. The nearest competitor is years away from being completed.
    I have been reading a lot lately that the infrastructure of the Air Force needs a major overhaul. A lot of the aircraft are aging and we donít have enough replacement aircraft in the pipeline.

    The F-22 is a 5th generation aircraft that will be the state of the art but we fight most of our wars with 4th and 3rd generation aircraft and they are really aging. There is serious doubt about the F-35 being able to do the job it was designed to do.

    The command and control systems in the Air Force also needs a major re modernization.

    If you would like I can go and hunt up those articles for you.
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  9. #99  
    gator
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinejcksn View Post
    I second that. Look what's happening now in Iraq. At first the insurgent strategy was to keep bombing US troops every day, giving the American people reason to say pull our troops out now and they figured if they killed more and more of us eventually the public would turn against us until we pulled everyone out, like Vietnam.

    Then along came the surge, and we kicked their ass back to the stone age. Now, rather then create chaos every day what do they do? Largely nothing...I really think they're biding their time until we leave, at which point they'll attack this place en mass.
    The Middle East has always been a tarbaby for the United States. We can spend a lot of money and we can spend a lot of lives but at the end of the day we are not going to change a goddamn thing. I think we found that out in Iran and in places like Beirut. It is like the worst foreign entanglement we have ever been in.

    The bottom line on the Middle East is all really need to be concerned about is the oil supply. The US, along with the rest of the world, needs to make sure the oil supply is stable.

    We donít need to be concerned about Israelís right to exist or the plight of the Palestinians or who is running Beirut nowadays. Let those people over there worry about things like that. It is not our problem.

    If we were to get out of the business of intervening in the affairs of other countries that has nothing to do with our own security we would be pleasantly surprised to find out a lot of this terror shit against the US would go away. We created that monster and if we think it is going away by us just killing more people then we are very naÔve.
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  10. #100  
    Sonnabend
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    Not gonna happen! If America stopped buying, or they stopped selling, Japan, China and other would go tits up. They NEED our economy.
    They'd find other markets. Ones that would lock you out.
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