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  1. #1 Mainline Feminists and Sharia 
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    Ok.

    So, your very own Elspeth, a self-avowed feminist (since childhood) is waiting patiently for NOW, Fund for the Feminist Majority and other women's rights groups to talk about Sharia in Europe. She is waiting for the blizzard of emails to tell her to immediately write letters of protest to the British government explaining how women could lose their rights, money and possibly their lives under Sharia.

    Crickets....

    More crickets....

    Ok, WHERE ARE YOU???????


    Sigh.

    So your very own Elspeth is FURIOUS.

    Furious at mainstream feminists.

    You ladies have bought into cultural relativity to the point that we can't talk about "honor" killings without being considered racist??

    Grrrrr....:mad::mad::mad:


    A lot of mainstream American feminists buy into cultural relativity because of the history of the Civil Rights movement, in which racial and feminist issues got combined. It's a political "marriage" that doesn't always work, as in the OJ Simpson case, where a clearly guilty man got away with two murders (and continuous domestic violence) and ended up getting custody of the kids. The mainline feminists, who usually speak out for female victims, were completely silent, blackmailed into it by the male black leadership. (Tammy Bruce has some interesting stuff on this. I actually was involved in the feminist movement in Southern Calfornia at the time she was, and I can vouch for a lot of what she says.) I see the same type of thing happening with discussions of "female circumcision" (really genital mutilation), the Indian practice of widow-burning, and other 3rd World phenomena, forms of brutality against women and children that are "justified" on a cultural basis.

    I have also seen the mainstream feminists hold back during this election with Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. Obama's campaign, aided and abetted by a complicit media, let loose unfettered misogyny during Hillary's primary run. The DNC did NOTHING to fight back, even though this was one of their potential candidates, and the feminists were remarkably silent. However, when Hillary referred to Lyndon Johnson getting the 1964 Civil Rights Act passed (by arm twisting Congress) and signed into law, Hillary was instantly accused of racism. (I don't get it either, but that's what happened.) Every little comment that Hillary made was examined for anything that could be considered remotely racist, and when she referred to RFK's assassination, she was accused on progressive blogs, like Democratic Underground, of wanting to assassinate Obama. I kid you not.


    Meanwhile, Obama was able to play "99 Problems and the Bitch ain't one" at his Iowa caucus win and his supporters were able to wear "Bros before Hos" T-shirts and no one called them on their obvious misogyny. The mainstream feminist movement was, again, silent. I am on several feminist mailing lists and have heard nothing from them in regard to the sexist discourse surrounding Hillary Clinton (or Sarah Palin, for that matter.) But when the New Yorker came out with a cover showing Barack Obama dressed as a Muslim and Michelle Obama dressed as a 60s radical (the cover was satire), I got a blizzard of emails telling me how racist this cover was and that I had to write to the New Yorker to show my outrage. I thought the cover was clever satire, in the vein of Stephen Colbert, and felt no reason to complain. But this just tells you where the mainstream feminist priorities are, and they are, more and more, not my priorities. They no longer fight for women, unless the coast is clear and they are not "stepping on" someone else's race or culture. To me, feminist issues transcend race and culture because all women in all cultures have physical and societal vulnerabilities that need to be addressed.

    Sharia is an absolutely horrific thing for women and children. I don't doubt that it was "progressive" in AD700, but we're a long way from that. There is a great book called "While Europe Slept" that details the many alterations made in European law and cultural practices to accommodate Muslim males over the past 20 years. (We know they're not accommodating the Muslim females, many of whom came to Europe to escape sharia in the Middle East.) It's a great book and a scary one. A friend of mine at the Pentagon (who has reason to know) tells me that Europe will be more or less Muslim in a generation or two. At the time he said this, I thought he was exaggerating. But with this development in Britain, I am beginning to think he is right.

    I am a feminist army of one at the moment. I will fight against Sharia if it comes here. I don't give one flying damn about cultural relativity when all that term means is that women are allowed to die.

    Hang it up NOW. Go away, Feminist Majority.

    It's time for a new movement.
    Last edited by Elspeth; 09-17-2008 at 12:17 PM.
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  2. #2  
    noonwitch
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    I'm with you. Every time I go off about it at DU, I get accused of misunderstanding Islam. I understand it quite well. As I say, I don't discriminate against indidvidual muslims and I try to understand their viewpoints and backrounds, but I have issues with Islam and the way women are treated in countries that are ruled by Islamic law. Sharia law is bad for women-it gets women stoned for being rape victims, forced to wear burkas because muslim men aren't expected to control their lust, and allows husbands and fathers to beat their wives and daughters.
    My dentist is from Iran-her family left when the Shah took power, because they were christians and her father wanted she and her sister to have a chance to live a good life as strong women. She told me "You know how on the news they are always referring to acts of terrorism and violence by extreme muslims? There are no extreme muslims, they are all that way". Her sister disagrees, because she married a man who has muslim relatives. The radicals are the most vocal, I don't think anyone disputes that.
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  3. #3  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    ...I thought the cover was clever satire, in the vein of Stephen Colbert, and felt no reason to complain.
    This is the only thing that you said that I disagree with. Stephen Colbert is sophmoric at best.

    Now, while I am not a Feminist (as defined by NOW, Feminist Majority and the like), I do have two daughters who I expect to see become self-sufficient adults who will live under a system that provides them with the equal protections of the law, and I will spend the next fifteen-twenty years preparing them for that. They will wear burkas only over my rotting corpse, which is, unfortunately, perfectly okay with the Islamists. Their view of the future does not include free men and women, because their view of the future is the past.

    The apalling thing about the silence of Feminists is that they will inflate ridiculously small threats while ignoring real ones. For example, Margaret Atwood's book, The Handmaid's Tale, is an absurd account of a future US ruled by Christian fundamentalists that presumes a misogyny that you won't find anywhere in the US, except among Moslems. It was eventually made into an A-list feature starring Natasha Richarson and Robert Duvall and got the kinds of review that you would expect from a sympathetic media. OTOH, Tom Kratman's Caliphate is a far more plausible scenario than Atwood's, and far scarier, especially in its depiction of the future of Europe and the US 100 years from now, but it will not be made into a movie any time soon. The murderer of Theo Van Gogh saw to that.
    --Odysseus
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    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
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  4. #4  
    Senior Member wineslob's Avatar
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    You spelled women incorrectly. It's wymn.................you fail.
    There's no way you can trust her. Her missile is gigantic
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  5. #5  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wineslob View Post
    You spelled women incorrectly. It's wymn.................you fail.
    I thought that it was womyn, to remove the unfortunate "men" suffix, but what do I know? I don't even have a uterus. :D
    --Odysseus
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    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
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  6. #6  
    noonwitch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    This is the only thing that you said that I disagree with. Stephen Colbert is sophmoric at best.

    Now, while I am not a Feminist (as defined by NOW, Feminist Majority and the like), I do have two daughters who I expect to see become self-sufficient adults who will live under a system that provides them with the equal protections of the law, and I will spend the next fifteen-twenty years preparing them for that. They will wear burkas only over my rotting corpse, which is, unfortunately, perfectly okay with the Islamists. Their view of the future does not include free men and women, because their view of the future is the past.

    The apalling thing about the silence of Feminists is that they will inflate ridiculously small threats while ignoring real ones. For example, Margaret Atwood's book, The Handmaid's Tale, is an absurd account of a future US ruled by Christian fundamentalists that presumes a misogyny that you won't find anywhere in the US, except among Moslems. It was eventually made into an A-list feature starring Natasha Richarson and Robert Duvall and got the kinds of review that you would expect from a sympathetic media. OTOH, Tom Kratman's Caliphate is a far more plausible scenario than Atwood's, and far scarier, especially in its depiction of the future of Europe and the US 100 years from now, but it will not be made into a movie any time soon. The murderer of Theo Van Gogh saw to that.

    Say what you want about "The Handmaid's Tale", but at the time it was written, the author gave it a christian theme as far as the religion of the bad guys goes, but the acts and much of the attitude came from the Iranian revolution. Executing adulterers in a stadium, for example. There is even a scene where the handmaid is observed by people visiting the nation from somewhere like Japan, and it is said to them not to address her, that this is the way things were-very much like many people's attitudes at times about women in muslim nations.
    I had an argument with a coworker after 9-11, when she said that women in Afganistan were used to being treated that way, and that was no reason to intervene. I told her that it wasn't, that before the Taliban, women in Afganistan went to school, became doctors and teachers, and that although it was never as open as here, it was better than it was under the Taliban.
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  7. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonwitch View Post
    Say what you want about "The Handmaid's Tale", but at the time it was written, the author gave it a christian theme as far as the religion of the bad guys goes, but the acts and much of the attitude came from the Iranian revolution. Executing adulterers in a stadium, for example. There is even a scene where the handmaid is observed by people visiting the nation from somewhere like Japan, and it is said to them not to address her, that this is the way things were-very much like many people's attitudes at times about women in muslim nations.
    I had an argument with a coworker after 9-11, when she said that women in Afganistan were used to being treated that way, and that was no reason to intervene. I told her that it wasn't, that before the Taliban, women in Afganistan went to school, became doctors and teachers, and that although it was never as open as here, it was better than it was under the Taliban.
    Yes. People forget that women in Afghanistan had real lives before the Taliban. It didn't take long to forget either.

    I knew a Christian Armenian woman who had been through the Iranian revolution in 1979. She managed to get out of Iran by the late 1980s, but she had money and a British education. Even then, it was incredibly difficult for her to get out. The Christians were treated worse than second class and the Christian women were forced to be fully covered. The woman I knew was in her own home when agents of the Iranian mullah government came in and forced her to be fitted for a Muslim woman's clothing. They actually grabbed her and forced her into the clothing, taking her Western clothing. She kept telling them that she was a Christian but it didn't matter.

    I met her when she had been living in the US for a couple of years and was taking community college classes so she could get a job. She was an amazingly strong and intelligent woman. Very beautiful too.
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  8. #8  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonwitch View Post
    Say what you want about "The Handmaid's Tale", but at the time it was written, the author gave it a christian theme as far as the religion of the bad guys goes, but the acts and much of the attitude came from the Iranian revolution. Executing adulterers in a stadium, for example. There is even a scene where the handmaid is observed by people visiting the nation from somewhere like Japan, and it is said to them not to address her, that this is the way things were-very much like many people's attitudes at times about women in muslim nations.
    Then why project the evil acts of Iranian Moslems on American Christians? Why not write about the treatment of women in a fictional Islamic state, or better yet, a non-fiction book about the real Iran? After all, Ms. Atwood is a huge name in contemporary literature. It's not like she had to pander to get a book published. Why did she have to stigmatize and slander the intentions of Americans with the conduct of our enemies?
    Quote Originally Posted by noonwitch View Post
    I had an argument with a coworker after 9-11, when she said that women in Afganistan were used to being treated that way, and that was no reason to intervene. I told her that it wasn't, that before the Taliban, women in Afganistan went to school, became doctors and teachers, and that although it was never as open as here, it was better than it was under the Taliban.
    You are absolutely correct. The Aghan monarchy was nowhere near as repressive as the Taliban, and did allow women to advance themselves, through education, and joining the professions, however, this was almost entirely confined to the more cosmopolitan urban centers (Khabul, Kandahar, etc.). The rural areas were much less progressive and much more tribal in their outlook, but even there, the Taliban wreaked havoc with extreme repressions that alienated the locals, and they were glad to be rid of them. Besides, no one should ever have to get "used" to being treated like leprous livestock.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    Yes. People forget that women in Afghanistan had real lives before the Taliban. It didn't take long to forget either.
    I knew a Christian Armenian woman who had been through the Iranian revolution in 1979. She managed to get out of Iran by the late 1980s, but she had money and a British education. Even then, it was incredibly difficult for her to get out. The Christians were treated worse than second class and the Christian women were forced to be fully covered. The woman I knew was in her own home when agents of the Iranian mullah government came in and forced her to be fitted for a Muslim woman's clothing. They actually grabbed her and forced her into the clothing, taking her Western clothing. She kept telling them that she was a Christian but it didn't matter.
    I met her when she had been living in the US for a couple of years and was taking community college classes so she could get a job. She was an amazingly strong and intelligent woman. Very beautiful too.
    And now they are developing nuclear weapons, which some people think will be no big deal. Go figure...
    --Odysseus
    Sic Hacer Pace, Para Bellum.

    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
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  9. #9  
    noonwitch
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    [QUOTE=Odysseus;51862]Then why project the evil acts of Iranian Moslems on American Christians? Why not write about the treatment of women in a fictional Islamic state, or better yet, a non-fiction book about the real Iran? After all, Ms. Atwood is a huge name in contemporary literature. It's not like she had to pander to get a book published. Why did she have to stigmatize and slander the intentions of Americans with the conduct of our enemies?QUOTE]



    I'm not ignoring her feminist agenda against patriarchy (the word used frequently in feminist objections to Christianity), but I think part of what she was trying to do was present an "it can happen here" story, so she used the american christian culture to exemplify her point.
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  10. #10  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonwitch View Post
    I'm not ignoring her feminist agenda against patriarchy (the word used frequently in feminist objections to Christianity), but I think part of what she was trying to do was present an "it can happen here" story, so she used the american christian culture to exemplify her point.
    Again, why use Christians, who have never wanted the kind of society that she paints, as the agents of it? I can't think of a single Christian denomination that has ever been as misogynistic or backwards looking as the people in her book and movie. Even the Puritans allowed women to read, write, handle money and own property. If you want to do an "it can happen here" story, the "it" has to be something that can happen. Instead, she chose a scenario that clearly can't happen here, because the people that she sees as its instigators have never sought anything like that, except in the fantasies of those who consider Christians to be misogynist barbarians.

    Read Caliphate if you want to see what a chilling future that can happen will look like.
    --Odysseus
    Sic Hacer Pace, Para Bellum.

    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
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