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  1. #11  
    Senior Member wasp69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck View Post
    Meh.... I gave you the link from The Humanist, which seems genuine enough to me. You rejected it and said you haven't seen evidence.
    It's not evidence, it's analysis to fit an agenda. That you accept it as "genuine" is irrelevant.

    However, I will gladly share some quotes with you from the man himself:

    My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions.

    --Letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush, April 21, 1803
    To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others...

    --Letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush, April 21, 1803
    In time of prosperity fill our hearts with thankfulness, and in the day of trouble, suffer not our trust in Thee to fail; all of which we ask through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.

    --A National Prayer For Peace, March 4, 1805
    A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian; that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.

    --Letter to Charles Thomson, January 9, 1816, regarding his book, The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth:
    Extremely contrarian to what the humanist.org website tries to tell you, isn't it?

    OK. But just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it's not there.
    Really? Tell me more, please...

    About the only thing I could recommend is that you go to The Smithsonian Institution and ask if you can read The Jefferson Bible for yourself. Who knows? Maybe they'll let you.
    Why is it the "Jefferson Bible" exists? Can you tell me what his reasoning for making it was?
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  2. #12  
    Senior Member wasp69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generation Why? View Post
    I cannot speak for the country, only myself.
    Fair enough.

    Many liberals believe in God, too. Don't get too deep into the myth that every last one is a Pagan.
    Oh, I don't believe that every last one is a Pagan, far from it. To be Pagan is to acknowledge faith in something greater than yourself. If I had ascribe anything to anyone that believes they are their own highest power, it would be LaVey Satanism.

    With that said, my morality can be closely related to Abraham Lincoln's views. "When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad."
    Which means, to you, morality is subjective to what you say it is.

    You don't need scripture for that.
    No, you most certainly don't.

    And yes many of our laws are similar to religious text but that doesn't necessarily mean that is the only reason they are laws.
    Really? So what basis, other than religious text, was used? What basis of morality was used if not from the Holy Bible?

    I do not need a book to tell me it is wrong to kill someone, self-defense aside. I don't need a book to tell me it is wrong to take that which isn't mine. But that is just me.
    Yeah? So how did you figure it out, what was your basis for your humanity and morality?
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  3. #13  
    Senior Member Gina's Avatar
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    go to The Smithsonian Institution and ask if you can read The Jefferson Bible for yourself
    Not necessary. I got mine off Amazon.com
    Good men sleep peaceably in their beds at night because
    rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.



    Real superheroes don't wear capes. They wear dog tags.
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  4. #14  
    Senior Member Generation Why?'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wasp69 View Post
    Really? So what basis, other than religious text, was used? What basis of morality was used if not from the Holy Bible?



    Yeah? So how did you figure it out, what was your basis for your humanity and morality?


    There are illiterate tribesman in the middle of Africa who have never heard of Jesus or a Bible and know not to kill people without just cause. How did they figure it out? And I told you my basis: Indiscriminately killing someone without just cause, such as self defense, is wrong. I don't need a Bible to tell me that. Just an appreciation for human life.
    “A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others.”Ayn Rand

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  5. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generation Why? View Post
    There are illiterate tribesman in the middle of Africa who have never heard of Jesus or a Bible and know not to kill people without just cause. How did they figure it out? And I told you my basis: Indiscriminately killing someone without just cause, such as self defense, is wrong. I don't need a Bible to tell me that. Just an appreciation for human life.
    Well, they gonna have to be pretty deep in the jungle!
    Christians have been hacking at the undergrowth for a couple thousand years, now. But, still, the Christian sites claim that 42% of the world's population have not been told the story. So they keep sending youths from our town to Nicaragua.........go figure
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  6. #16  
    Senior Member Generation Why?'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck View Post
    Well, they gonna have to be pretty deep in the jungle!
    Christians have been hacking at the undergrowth for a couple thousand years, now. But, still, the Christian sites claim that 42% of the world's population have not been told the story. So they keep sending youths from our town to Nicaragua.........go figure
    Yeah my little sister went to Panama last year with her church. You know, because all those Catholic Panamanians need to hear about Jesus. But then again, not letting her go to Africa.
    “A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others.”Ayn Rand

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  7. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generation Why? View Post
    I cannot speak for the country, only myself. Many liberals believe in God, too. Don't get too deep into the myth that every last one is a Pagan. With that said, my morality can be closely related to Abraham Lincoln's views. "When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad." You don't need scripture for that. And yes many of our laws are similar to religious text but that doesn't necessarily mean that is the only reason they are laws. I do not need a book to tell me it is wrong to kill someone, self-defense aside. I don't need a book to tell me it is wrong to take that which isn't mine. But that is just me.
    I'd argue that the knowledge of good and evil comes from God and is not dependent on the written word. God can write that knowledge into our very DNA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    It would be silly to ban the Bible, many of our laws are based on its principles.
    True, which is the point of an article like this. Our atheists are trying to convince us they "don't get it." this seems disengenuous to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by wasp69 View Post
    Tell me, how well has this country done socially since the libs proclaimed God dead and crowned themselves as their own highest power? How would you rate the morality of this country today as opposed to the 1950s?
    Not well. Liberals will now pile on with all manner of quibbling little, pathetically inadequate defenses of their various sins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Generation Why? View Post
    Ok, I will bite: What is your point? I am an atheist and I sure as hell don't want any religion to be banned, presecuted, etc etc. At the same time, I do not want someone's religious opinions to be deciding factor for laws. Because my mother thinks something is immoral in the eyes of God, does not mean it should be illegal to all. That simple. You can have morality without the Bible, Torah, Quran, etc. With that said, have a good day.
    But not without God. If there is no God, there is no reason to constrain yourself, no matter how many bones you have stitched into your nose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck View Post
    Yeah, I'm not getting the point, either. Anyway, many of the founders were Deists, not Christians.

    Here, for example is Jefferson:

    http://thehumanist.org/march-april-2...mas-jefferson/

    The text goes on to say that if Jefferson were running for President today his chances of success would be torpedoed by his religious beliefs.................He called the writers of the New Testament “ignorant, unlettered men” who produced “superstitions, fanaticisms, and fabrications.”

    Read it for yourself...
    Jefferson was a Christian. That is all you need to "get."

    Quote Originally Posted by Generation Why? View Post
    There are illiterate tribesman in the middle of Africa who have never heard of Jesus or a Bible and know not to kill people without just cause. How did they figure it out? And I told you my basis: Indiscriminately killing someone without just cause, such as self defense, is wrong. I don't need a Bible to tell me that. Just an appreciation for human life.
    Not true. You can appreciate all manner of things and still destroy them. You may snuff out the life of somebody and justify it as essential. The very fact you felt it necessary to justify it speaks of an internal right and wrong. Where does that come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Generation Why? View Post
    Yeah my little sister went to Panama last year with her church. You know, because all those Catholic Panamanians need to hear about Jesus. But then again, not letting her go to Africa.
    I just got back from Panama and I can tell you the Catholic church is nearly as dead as in Europe and also the USA. The growing and thriving movement is evangelicals (AOG). By the way, I met a couple of witches while there and I can tell you they are as evil as they come.
    Education without values, as useful as it is, seems rather to make man a more clever devil.
    C. S. Lewis
    Do not ever say that the desire to "do good" by force is a good motive. Neither power-lust nor stupidity are good motives. (Are you listening Barry)?:mad:
    Ayn Rand
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  8. #18  
    Senior Member wasp69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generation Why? View Post
    There are illiterate tribesman in the middle of Africa who have never heard of Jesus or a Bible and know not to kill people without just cause. How did they figure it out? And I told you my basis: Indiscriminately killing someone without just cause, such as self defense, is wrong. I don't need a Bible to tell me that. Just an appreciation for human life.
    Fantastic, where did you learn it? What is the basis for your morality?
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  9. #19  
    Senior Member wasp69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generation Why? View Post
    Yeah my little sister went to Panama last year with her church. You know, because all those Catholic Panamanians need to hear about Jesus.
    Surely you are aware that Christian Missions do more than just stand around and preach to the masses, right?
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  10. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmPat View Post
    .........Jefferson was a Christian. That is all you need to "get.".......
    Well, if you say so. But not everyone agrees with you. Jesus-is-savior.com doesn't:
    I was greatly saddened to learn that Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) was NOT a Christian. Jefferson made so many wonderful patriotic quotes concerning freedom and the dangers of the central bank. I was amazed as I watched a PBS documentary on the life of Thomas Jefferson............
    I realize that there are historical writings which reveal that Thomas Jefferson claimed to be a Christian, including an actual photo of Jefferson's handwritten statement “I am a real Christian.” Albeit, just as most professed Christians today are not true born-again believers, the following quotes from Mr. Jefferson make it quite clear that he was NO Christian:

    “And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.” —Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
    http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolve..._jefferson.htm
    I think some people would consider Jefferson a Christian today and others would not. Does it really matter? Not to me. The founders were right on some things; wrong on others. Just like men today.

    To the above quoted "bleever" Jefferson strays off the path of Christianity; others make a different argument. But both arguments are out there.
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