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  1. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockntractor View Post
    He isn't new, he is Caughtinthemiddle and we let him back in.
    Well, OK, new to me. But I gather I just expended a whole weekend's worth of nice on a fruitless effort....
    Olde-style, states' rights conservative. Ask if this concept confuses you.
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  2. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Wood View Post
    Well, OK, new to me. But I gather I just expended a whole weekend's worth of nice on a fruitless effort....
    Excellent pun though, I give you an 8.
    The difference between pigs and people is that when they tell you you're cured it isn't a good thing.
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  3. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockntractor View Post
    Excellent pun though, I give you an 8.
    OK, now I'm totally lost.



    Anyway, SquareD or whatever your name is these days, I'm sorry, but the world just doesn't need gay scout leaders. If homosexuals want to have a private organization of gay scout leaders leading gay kids out in the woods, that's fine with me. My guess is that such an organization won't last terribly long, though.
    Olde-style, states' rights conservative. Ask if this concept confuses you.
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  4. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Wood View Post
    OK, now I'm totally lost.



    Anyway, SquareD or whatever your name is these days, I'm sorry, but the world just doesn't need gay scout leaders. If homosexuals want to have a private organization of gay scout leaders leading gay kids out in the woods, that's fine with me. My guess is that such an organization won't last terribly long, though.
    Just think of the fabulous uniforms and pink sashes. Oh, and the flair is to die for.
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  5. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Wood View Post
    You have a nice, idyllic view of this, and that's nice and kind of you and all of that, but unfortunately you're missing out (or just ignoring) some very real-world issues at play here.

    You're new, so by way of introduction, I'll say that I'm fairly open-minded about gay people. I don't like homosexuality. I find it (the act of homosexuality, not so much the desires and whatnot) disgusting, honestly. But that's just the way things are. There is little hacks me off more than panty-waist liberals who get all bent out of shape over something that offends their overly-delicate sensibilities, so I would be a pretty severs hypocrite if I just got all bent out of shape over gay people engaging in behavior that offends me. Ergo, I tend to just say "fuck it; live and let live" when it comes to gay people. I don't particularly care whether gay people serve in the armed forces; I resigned myself to the idea that gay people are already in the military anyway, and I have the luxury of being an "armchair warrior" and say that if they can kill the enemy as well as the next straight guy (or gal), then I think I'd rather have their muzzles generally pointing in that direction.
    I agree with your general stance on homosexuality. The idea of gay sex or gay acts is very unappealing, and I could never understand how a man couldn't be attracted to a woman. I simply cannot wrap my head around a gay guy seeing a beautiful woman and not recognizing her beauty or wanting her. My position towards whatever gays do in their bedrooms is more one of apathy than of revulsion; I don't care as long as I'm left alone and I'm not harassed and as long as no one is being hurt nor any illegal acts are happening. And I agree with you on gays in the military. As long as they can shoot straight, who cares?

    Now, with all of that out of the way, the BSA is a bit of a special case. In the perfect, idyllic world that you portray, boys are sweet, innocent things from age 12-18, with never a thought of sex in their heads, and the (often) young to middle-aged adult males only have pure thoughts and intentions. Here in the real world, boys from age 12-18 have raging hormones and all manner of sexual confusion and wonder. And usually a hard-on. I know: I was once a boy, all the way from age 12 to age 18. Now, a lot of gay people won't admit it (though some of them will), but a whole lot of young men are "recruited" into the gay lifestyle by older men (usually from late 20s to early 40s, just about the age of your typical Scoutmaster). I've personally seen this go on at least a dozen times, and I've even had an older gay man try to "recruit" me when I was 17 or 18. Lots will try to deny that this happens, but there are plenty of reasonably honest gay people out there who will admit this is the truth when cornered.

    That makes the BSA an incredibly fertile garden gay men who want to have boys who can be "molded" into other gay men, who then grow older and find a new batch of recruits.
    I perfectly understand all the sorts of raging hormones that go on at that age. I'm 21 turning 22 myself so not too far removed from the teenage years. I also went to High School in an non co-ed Catholic High School. I've honestly never ever seen any sort of recruitment. If it happens I've never been a target, though in fairness, the only gays I've known were those in my own age group.

    Now with the rampant horniness of the teenage years, I still don't see how a teen could be "recruited" into homosexuality. A young kid could be molested, for sure, and that sadly happens all too often, but a young boy who is molested isn't necessarily going to be gay...I know when I was in High School, even in our first year (which you figure we would've been 13-14) we all knew what being gay was. And I think a great portion of us knew what we liked in terms of sexuality. I don't see how a teenager, at least in today's world, could be "recuited" into liking men. They could be seduced, perhaps, by a pervert, into indulging gay acts...But I don't believe any of us has a choice in whether we like women or men. I certainly don't recall "choosing" to find women attractive at any point in my life; From as far back as I can remember--age 3 or so--I always liked girls. Now, that's just my subjective experience but using that...I don't see that there's a choice in being attracted to whatever you're attracted to.

    Whether any gay people want to admit it or not (most don't now, though they were screaming this from the rooftops 20 and 30 years ago), homosexuality is a choice. It may not be a conscious choice, but it's a choice. And gays themselves have forced this to be the only possible choice: for many years, homosexuality was considered a mental defect, and then they screamed that it wasn't, so homosexuality was taken out of the DSM, and they proudly proclaimed that they were exercising their choice, but then when choice became inconvenient, they said that it was not a choice. But it can't not be a choice if it's not a mental defect, so it has to be some sort of genetic differentiation. But decades of very well-funded research has yet to find this elusive "gay gene." The reason that it hasn't been found is that it doesn't exist, because homosexuality is a choice. Of course, the gay lobby can't admit that now, because it would blow everything they hope to achieve in special rights for gays right out of the water. So they press on with this ludicrous "genetic gay" crap because it sounds good on Capitol Hill and it garners sympathy. After all, who can blame the poor gay people who can't help but bugger each other in the ass?
    What do you mean it's not a CONSCIOUS choice? What sort of "choice" would it be? As far as I'm concerned, the only "choice" with regard to sexuality is choosing to act or not. What I mean is, I don't feel gays choose to find others of their own sex attractive, just as I don't choose to find certain women attractive. We can't force ourselves to be attracted to something our mind or body just isn't into.

    But there is the choice to act on our desires or attractions. A gay person I don't feel chooses to be attracted to another man or woman, but they do choose to sleep with that person. Now, some feel they should NOT do it. That they should repress their desires or whatever. I feel this is wrong, personally. As long as you're not hurting anyone or doing something illegal I don't see why a person can't do what makes them happy.

    I'm aware of the DSM calling homosexuality a mental defect and how it was changed in the '70s under pressure from gay activists and the like. I don't myself know the origin of homosexuality, but I've heard things about gays' brains being wired differently than straights. I don't know if that's true but it'd make sense. Others have said nature itself creates gays as a form of population control. Dunno if that's true either. I don't believe in a gay gene...Never did.

    Now, even if it is a choice...I say again so what? Why should I be up in arms over something that would never effect me, that isn't harming anyone? I think it's very dangerous ground to start calling things we find icky "mental defects." Because if you label something as a mental defect, than you'd want to "treat" it, so you can "cure" it. That's the kind of thinking, IMO, that led to the ugliness of eugenics--Getting rid of the undesirables, the unwanted, the icky people. For the eugenicists, prostitutes, the poor, the slow, drunks and others were the icky people, the dead weight of society, who in order to create a better society should be treated or sterilized. It's a very dangerous road to go down....All of us have our own sexual things and whatnot and what happens if someone prudish comes along and says that our private bedroom practices are the result of a metal defect?

    I'd only support such efforts in the case of behaviors that clearly harm people, such as pedophilia. From what I've seen, pedophiles in large measure do not choose to like young children and feel on a level it is wrong to like children. Yet they are compelled to act on their desires the same way an alcoholic is compelled to drink. That I would support all sorts of therapy for.

    So, I'm sorry, but the BSA is just not the place to put unsupervised gay men with impressionable young boys. It's just too much of a risk, and the BSA has every right to, and is right in, doing what they can to mitigate that risk.


    You (the Royal You) wanna be gay? Fine by me. Go be gay and bugger as many other willing guys in the ass that you want to. I find it utterly disgusting, but it's none of my business so long as it's two consenting grown-ups. But when you're engaging in, for lack of a better description, gay pederasty, then I'm sorry, but I draw the line when it comes to private organizations who don't want you doing that to their boys who are otherwise growing up to be healthy, hearty, well-rounded men who, statistically, go on to lead successful lives.
    I don't feel scoutmasters or the like should be gay...I'm talking about a kid who wants to join. If a kid, a teenager, whatever, wants to join and he happens to identify as gay, I don't feel the kid should be excluded. I really doubt a teenager or kid is going to engage in pederasty. An adult man perhaps, but there's the thing of all gay men not being pedophiles. I don't feel gay men are all pedophiles. Some definitely are. It is questionable to a degree that an adult gay male would want to join an organization of young men, though.
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  6. #26  
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    I don't feel scoutmasters or the like should be gay...I'm talking about a kid who wants to join. If a kid, a teenager, whatever, wants to join and he happens to identify as gay, I don't feel the kid should be excluded.
    This brings up one of my issues about gay people. Why would a kid have to announce that he's gay? Just to see if they'll let him in? Normal people don't go somewhere and say "hi I'm Joe and I'm (gay, straight,) whatever." It all seems like attention-getting behavior to me. Maybe some people like to be made to feel bad.

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  7. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MountainMan View Post
    ........ the BSA has NEVER taught the boys to hate ANYONE and that if she can't see the difference that maybe she needs to educate herself.
    What emotion would you categorize a ban on gay people with? What message does it send to young people? How do you think it affects the gay boy who is in the BSA already?

    How noble are we to view an organization which maintains that it serves a vital role in the nurture of young men but seeks to deny that service to young gay men?
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  8. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by CactusCarlos View Post
    I've got a better question: why don't gays form their own scouting organization instead of expending all the effort to infiltrate the Boy Scouts of America?
    Gay people do not infiltrate society, gay people are a part of society. One cannot maintain that the BSA is part and parcel to American society and then view it as exclusive and apart. The court has ruled that the BSA is a private religious club which has the right to discriminate. The Mormon Church, which has undue influence in the BSA, had every right to discriminate against blacks as well and did. That doesn't mean that it was right or immune from criticism for having done so. Just because the BSA won the right to discriminate against gay boys while pretending to be open to all boys, doesn't mean that it should.
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  9. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Wood View Post
    Now, a lot of gay people won't admit it (though some of them will), but a whole lot of young men are "recruited" into the gay lifestyle by older men (usually from late 20s to early 40s, just about the age of your typical Scoutmaster). I've personally seen this go on at least a dozen times, and I've even had an older gay man try to "recruit" me when I was 17 or 18. Lots will try to deny that this happens, but there are plenty of reasonably honest gay people out there who will admit this is the truth when cornered.
    Yes Adam, it's the huge secret that we all swear to on our 18th birthday when we get the secret handshake and decoder ring. Or by putting "recruited" in quotes did you mean something other than the ridiculous notion that some young men magically have their sexual orientation changed by a Hermie moment? What the fuck are you talking about? Somebody tried to seduce you when you were 17 or 18? Imagine that! Welcome to the world of every 17 or 18 year old girl who doesn't have a face that scares small animals. When some guy tries to pick up Sally Seventeen is he "recruiting" her? When I was 17 our next door neighbor creeped me out with what I thought was a sexual advance, and boy did I go running away from her! What does any of this have to do with the BSA's discriminatory policy?
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  10. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Wood View Post
    That makes the BSA an incredibly fertile garden gay men who want to have boys who can be "molded" into other gay men, who then grow older and find a new batch of recruits.
    Kracka, is you crazy?
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