Muslim Brotherhood begins crucifixions in Egypt

[Lanie]

No need to kill all of them for several hundred years we just made sure they stayed there.

Are you not aware that millions of them are right here?

I think that you all see Islam as evil, but not necessarily all Muslims. If not, why would so many here say we should have stayed in Iraq? For what? To protect the Muslims from other Muslims? If they're all evil, let them kill each other. Why was such a big deal made out of Iraqis being allowed to vote? Don't you all realize that famous pic of the woman showing ink on her finger was probably Muslim?

You all don't believe all Muslims are evil and you sure don't want to kill them all. I want you all to admit it.

[Rockntractor]

Are you not aware that millions of them are right here?

I think that you all see Islam as evil, but not necessarily all Muslims. If not, why would so many here say we should have stayed in Iraq? For what? To protect the Muslims from other Muslims? If they're all evil, let them kill each other. Why was such a big deal made out of Iraqis being allowed to vote? Don't you all realize that famous pic of the woman showing ink on her finger was probably Muslim?

You all don't believe all Muslims are evil and you sure don't want to kill them all. I want you all to admit it.

Our cultures mix like oil and water.

[txradioguy]

Lanie the longer I know you the more naive you become, how is that possible?

She's not naive Rock. She knows what she's doing and saying. Any hint of her being naive is an act.

[Lanie]

She's not naive Rock. She knows what she's doing and saying. Any hint of her being naive is an act.

Nice dodge.

[Odysseus]

Muslim kids do get to be separated in schools to pray. From what I could tell, it was only at lunch, but it didn't seem to cause any harm. You pray, and then go back to class.

This happens in public schools? Seriously? If Christian or Jewish kids tried to do that, the ACLU would represent the school system that suspended them.

And, "from what [you] can tell" is hardly the standard. The whole point of Sharia is to establish Muslim superiority. In the example that you just cited, Muslim kids are getting a privilege that other religious don't get. That leaves three courses of action: The other religions can try to demand the same privilege, in which case we end up Balkanizing the schools; they can ignore it, and accept that the Muslims get a special dispensation, which will lead to more demands (footbaths will have to be installed, permanent markings towards Mecca will be emplaced, and additional prayers will be scheduled in order to ensure that they don't miss a session) or, they can object and demand that no kids pray during school hours, in which case they will be accused of racism. No matter what the Christians and Jews do, the end result will be polarization and enmity between the Muslims and everybody else, which further insulates the Muslim community and diminishes assimilation. Eventually, you get the kind of Muslim-only enclaves that you already have throughout Europe.

I don't think Egyptians will want to fight back right now. That doesn't mean they won't. People from Iran have been standing up to their theocracy government years after the Shah was taken out. Egypt will get to that point as well.

Some of them already are. There have been protests against the Muslim Brotherhood's reimposition of censorship after the press published some criticisms of Mursi, and the protest against Hillary Clinton's convoy was done because she was perceived to have been working to get the Muslim Brotherhood into power. However, these are isolated acts by a minority. The majority supported the Muslim Brotherhood, which is why they are in power, and now that they have that power, they will not voluntarily relinquish it. By the time that they are forced out, it may be too late for the rest of the world.

Ody, the problem is by demonizing Islam, you're demonizing every last person who practices it. If they're all evil, shouldn't they all die? Do you believe that? If you don't believe that, then why not? That's the problem here. I don't have a problem with condemning theocracy. I have a problem with declaring every last Muslim to be evil. It opens the door to some dangerous ideas.

The problem here is that you are putting words into my mouth. I didn't say that all Muslims are evil, just as I have never said that all persons living in Russia were evil when the Soviet Union was exporting an evil doctrine. Islam, as a political doctrine, is horrifically destructive and intolerant. It is a totalitarian system which incorporates religious fanaticism into political imperialism, with the end result being societies that rot and decay from within, but not before they have conquered and subjugated those around them. Those who wish to live under it in their own lands should be allowed to do so, but they should not be permitted to forcibly export it, either by conquest or stealth. The jihad has to end at their borders, or we will truly live in Dar al Harb, the House of War.

Ok.

Ok? That's your answer to the history of Islamic imperialism and violence? Really?

Are you not aware that millions of them are right here?

Yes, we are aware of that. And we're also aware of the implications of millions of people who subscribe to a totalitarian theocratic order coming to America, refusing to assimilate and gradually undermining our institutions.

I think that you all see Islam as evil, but not necessarily all Muslims. If not, why would so many here say we should have stayed in Iraq? For what? To protect the Muslims from other Muslims? If they're all evil, let them kill each other. Why was such a big deal made out of Iraqis being allowed to vote? Don't you all realize that famous pic of the woman showing ink on her finger was probably Muslim?

The mistake that was made in Iraq wasn't staying, it was leaving. We should have introduced the institutions of a trust society before we introduced democracy, but unfortunately, our politicians didn't figure that out Democracy without capitalism is a violent zero-sum game. Introducing Without secure property rights, democracy is simply factional infighting over government largess. it into a tribal society simply guarantees that the largest tribe wins and dominates the others, whose objections are met with violent reprisals.

You all don't believe all Muslims are evil and you sure don't want to kill them all. I want you all to admit it.

None of us want to kill Muslims. We just don't want to live under Sharia, convert or become dhimmis. We don't want our daughters to be chattel. We want liberty, which is not compatible with Islam.

Christianity and Judaism began and flourished under hostile regimes. Both religions had to survive through assimilation and subordination to the state. Islam was started and flourished under a regime of expansion through conquest. It has never had to deal with modernity, except to rebel against it. There has never been an Islamic Renaissance or Enlightenment, and the only attempt at it was cut short by the rise of the Asharite school of Islamic thought and the destruction of the Avicenian approach, which was based on empiricism and free inquiry. The Asharites were the ones who stated that all science was simply the will of Allah, and that cause and effect were illusions. It is the source of the fatalism that permeates Islam and strangles any attempts at reform. Until Islam faces its history honestly and reforms, it will continue to be a threat to the rest of the world.

[Lanie]

The problem here is that you are putting words into my mouth. I didn't say that all Muslims are evil, just as I have never said that all persons living in Russia were evil when the Soviet Union was exporting an evil doctrine. Islam, as a political doctrine, is horrifically destructive and intolerant. It is a totalitarian system which incorporates religious fanaticism into political imperialism, with the end result being societies that rot and decay from within, but not before they have conquered and subjugated those around them. Those who wish to live under it in their own lands should be allowed to do so, but they should not be permitted to forcibly export it, either by conquest or stealth. The jihad has to end at their borders, or we will truly live in Dar al Harb, the House of War.

Okay, that's all I really needed to hear since probably 99% of my arguments with you and others about Islam is about my concern about the blanket judgment. Please understand that my background is very very literal. I was raised to take the bible literally. If somebody said that something was green, it was green. It wasn't that a piece of it was green; it was green. I've never re-wired my brain to think differently. Any differing had to be clarified to me. So honestly, that's all I needed to hear. Thank you.

[txradioguy]

Nice dodge.

Not a dodge Lanie it's the truth. I've seen your act for over 5 years now.

You ACT like you want to learn...to see things differently...and then you come right back with the same old Liberal bullshit.

Just like with religion in general...abortion and now radical Islam...you claim you want to learn to understand why we believe the way we do...but six months form now we'll be explaining the same damn thing to you again.

[Lanie]

Not a dodge Lanie it's the truth. I've seen your act for over 5 years now.

You ACT like you want to learn...to see things differently...and then you come right back with the same old Liberal bullshit.

Just like with religion in general...abortion and now radical Islam...you claim you want to learn to understand why we believe the way we do...but six months form now we'll be explaining the same damn thing to you again.

I don't think I said in the other thread about abortion that I wanted to learn from you all. I said I wanted to know if there were resources on if the pro-life platform would have exceptions. Nothing to learn there. Either they will or they won't.

Now, Ody has said he doesn't think every last Muslim is evil, so I probably won't ask him about this again. He'll go through eternity without ever having to hear my question. You on the other hand....

Actually, you're right. I do know. I just want to hear you say it straight out. And others. Now, just because I've admitted what I wanted, I'll probably get the opposite out of spite.

Also, I think you confuse wanting to learn more about something with a willingness to convert. I asked my JW friend a couple of years ago more about her faith. She and her mother confused things and said I'd be a good candidate. Uh, no.

[Lanie]

I was speaking with somebody else about this thread in private, and this poster suggested I say what I said in private here. I know I tend to be prideful in public with people with people who don't know me well, not allowing them to see what I really think, so here it goes.

I'm sorry if I've taken things too far with the Islam argument. I've just been wanting to get to the bottom of things once and for all because people talk about how Islam is evil and destroy it. I tend to argue because I fear stuff like mass retaliation against an entire group of people. I knew you, Tx, and Rock didn't believe in that stuff, and I wanted to hear it straight out with my own ears so to speak.

And as a Christian, I am very upset about the crucifixions in Egypt. I really do want to go down there and kill some terrorists myself. I'm not lying. I want them dead.

But I'm sorry if I took it too far.

Okay, there it was. I'll come back tonight or tomorrow night depending if I do stuff.

[m00]

I don't know if Islam is somehow inherently evil... any more so than Judaism (my religion). But see, I belong to the "Reform" branch of Judaism, which grew out of a platform of modernity and a de-emphasis on ritual, written in 1885. And yeah, I live near a Hasidic Jewish community, and I think they are pretty backwards (and do some pretty awful stuff to women). But all religious texts have some pretty weird and awful stuff in them, and part of being a morally free agent is that we all get to make up our own minds.

Another difference is that the mainline practising Jew lives in the modern world (Reform or Conservative), and it's the fringe that's stuck in the 16th century.

Problem with Islam is that there is no mainline equivalent. They're all stuck in the 7th century. There is no "modern" Islam that is sanctioned and accepted... I know there are "partially practising" Muslims who effectively live in relation to their religion like I do to mine. But the difference is I can be a practising Jew and live a modern lifestyle within the framework of my religion. Whereas if you try to live a modern lifestyle within the framework of Islam, you are de facto a "bad Muslim." And what is evil is that backwards tribal practices and rituals have seriously taken over Islam.

That's one religion that really just needs a reformation.