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  1. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by djones520 View Post
    And I like that you assert that there are "deliberate efforts" and then link an article that clearly states that such cases are isolated, and there is clear policy against it.
    I said deliberate efforts because I have been following the issues at the Air Force Academy for some time. Academics actually call it "a culture of disregard" and that is why that "clear policy against it" came into being.


    From 2005

    http://www.sptimes.com/2005/05/29/Co..._Academy.shtml

    Capt. MeLinda Morton is a prime example. A chaplain at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, Morton has been trying her mightiest to end the force-fed evangelism that is rampant on campus. Rather than thanks, her outspoken defense of the Constitution has gotten her booted from her job and a one-way ticket to exile in Japan - known as "reassignment" in military speak.

    Her fight against proselytizing is taking place in Colorado Springs - control central for the most radical elements of the Christian Right. James "tolerance is a homosexual plot" Dobson's Focus on the Family is based there - a concern so large that there is no need to use a street address on a letter. Also nearby is the Officers' Christian Fellowship, an organization whose express purpose is to create "ambassadors for Christ in uniform." Its slogan is: "Christian Officers Exercising Biblical Leadership to Raise up a Godly Military." (That's funny, the Taliban say something very similar.)

    There is significant cross-pollination between the local evangelical groups and the Academy, to a point where cadets are reportedly cajoled, harangued and even bullied into being "saved."

    Mikey Weinstein, an attorney in Albuquerque, N.M., has been collecting complaints of this nature for more than a year and says he has about 150 of them. Weinstein is a graduate of the Academy, as is his elder son. But when his youngest son, who is a member of the class of 2007, was called a "f--- Jew" and taunted as a Christ killer, Weinstein got involved.

    "The Air Force Academy is suffering from a constitutional disease," Weinstein said. "They are trying to tell people whose God is best." He said his complaints have received little more than lip-service.
     

  2. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by djones520 View Post
    Nova, in 11 years I've never once seen anyone promote their religion on me in a conversion attempt. There is hardly anything widespread about any activities like that.

    And I like that you assert that there are "deliberate efforts" and then link an article that clearly states that such cases are isolated, and there is clear policy against it.
    Still — as officials confirmed for me — it was mostly because of Weinstein’s in-your-face activism that Air Force Instruction 1-1, Section 2.11, came into existence Aug. 7.

    It’s titled “Government Neutrality Regarding Religion.” It cautions leaders to “avoid the actual or apparent use of their position to promote their personal religious beliefs to their subordinates or to extend preferential treatment for any religion.”

    This instruction shouldn’t have been necessary.

    But now that we have it, everyone should heed it.

    It’s only right.


    http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/20...ligion-083112/
     

  3. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    I don't doubt you, but at the same time the MRFF has a lot of source material on its website, justifying its mission and showing the issues and events which have gotten traction or initiated change. Is it possible that there is some reason you were excused from the "illegal command pressure" that Weinstein refers to?
    Illegal command pressure? Where the hell are these terms coming from? From what that story says, it sounds like the commander was practicing his constitutionally gauranteed right to religion, and was making an event open to the entire unit if they so wanted to come along. Some folks got butthurt because for some reason people can't adults about things like religion, and decided to bitch about it.

    I've been stationed a wide variety of units, ranging from small base weather shops to MAJCOM Headquarters, and several things in between. I've worked directly under everything from Captains to 2 Star Generals. I've been involved with Fighter units, Cargo units, and units not directly associated with a flying mission.

    The widest extent of any religious expression that i've seen in my career is invocations offered by the Chaplain at the opening of ceremonies, such as Balls, Dining In's, Retirements, etc... There is no pressure to accept the words said in those and us atheists suffer no stigma at all for not saying "Amen" at the end of it.

    My supervisor is a devoute Catholic, and he's about as hardcore Air Force as you can get. We've had the occasional discussion about religion, but there has never been any attempt at all resembling conversion. I've had commanders as well who've made their faith known, when getting to know their troops a bit better, but there was never any "command pressure" from any of it.

    As many like to state, the military is a reflection of American society in general, and as America has a bunch of loud mouth assholes who feel that someone simply believing in god somehow means their trying to push their values on you, so does the military have to suffer those fools as well.
    In most sports, cold-cocking an opposing player repeatedly in the face with a series of gigantic Slovakian uppercuts would get you a multi-game suspension without pay.

    In hockey, it means you have to sit in the penalty box for five minutes.
     

  4. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by djones520 View Post
    Illegal command pressure? Where the hell are these terms coming from?
    Mikey Weinstein, graduate of the Air Force Academy and father of a graduate of the Air Force Academy.
     

  5. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Mikey Weinstein, graduate of the Air Force Academy and father of a graduate of the Air Force Academy.
    And a douchebag.

    You want to talk about fraud waste and abuse, how much money do you think that guy has wasted because he's butt hurt about people believing something differant then him?
    In most sports, cold-cocking an opposing player repeatedly in the face with a series of gigantic Slovakian uppercuts would get you a multi-game suspension without pay.

    In hockey, it means you have to sit in the penalty box for five minutes.
     

  6. #26  
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    Back to the original post:

    We have a sister in law who retired from the State Department as a nurse practitioner. And she knows "all about it", too. When pressed, she always reverts to the, "I work for The State Department; I know", position. Yes, Europe is wonderful, we still haven't recovered from the damage Bush did, Republicans lie, Muslims are misunderstood, we get to hear all of it.

    But from an unwanted stranger? That's why God gave us ten fingers; so we could give people like her one.
     

  7. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by djones520 View Post
    From what that story says, it sounds like the commander was practicing his constitutionally gauranteed right to religion, and was making an event open to the entire unit if they so wanted to come along. Some folks got butthurt because for some reason people can't adults about things like religion, and decided to bitch about it.
    While it's surprising that you dismiss the issue, apparently Gen. Schwartz (ret 10-1-2012) did not.

    http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom....eutralilty.pdf


    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...of-gospel?lite
    In Aug. 2011, in a victory for trying to extricate religion from military business, the Air Force suspended a course called “Christian Just War Theory” — which had been required for missile officers at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California. The PowerPoint for the class drew heavily upon Bible passages and Christian imagery to teach morals and ethics of launching nuclear weapons. In the class students were taught based on a passage in the Book of Revelations that Jesus Christ is a "mighty warrior" who believed some wars to be just, according to Truthout.com which broke the story.
     

  8. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    While it's surprising that you dismiss the issue, apparently Gen. Schwartz (ret 10-1-2012) did not.

    http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom....eutralilty.pdf


    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...of-gospel?lite
    In Aug. 2011, in a victory for trying to extricate religion from military business, the Air Force suspended a course called “Christian Just War Theory” — which had been required for missile officers at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California. The PowerPoint for the class drew heavily upon Bible passages and Christian imagery to teach morals and ethics of launching nuclear weapons. In the class students were taught based on a passage in the Book of Revelations that Jesus Christ is a "mighty warrior" who believed some wars to be just, according to Truthout.com which broke the story.
    Where do you think the pressure came for that, above him, from a guy in a suit, not a uniform. Do you think he would have given two shits about it when he had real things, like bombing the shit out of Al Qaeda, 10% budget cuts, and other real issues to worry about?
    In most sports, cold-cocking an opposing player repeatedly in the face with a series of gigantic Slovakian uppercuts would get you a multi-game suspension without pay.

    In hockey, it means you have to sit in the penalty box for five minutes.
     

  9. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by djones520 View Post
    And a douchebag.

    You want to talk about fraud waste and abuse, how much money do you think that guy has wasted because he's butt hurt about people believing something differant then him?
    Interesting that you so casually and caustically dismiss the concerns about the military being used to promote religion. What if your superior promotes a religion which forbids miscegenation? You gonna be "butt hurt" or a "whiny titty baby" (included because both of those terms are faves on DU).
     

  10. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by djones520 View Post
    Where do you think the pressure came for that, above him, from a guy in a suit, not a uniform. Do you think he would have given two shits about it when he had real things, like bombing the shit out of Al Qaeda, 10% budget cuts, and other real issues to worry about?
    The military is civilian controlled. Your other comments are deflection. Just because you don't mind being evangelized, subtly or not so subtly, doesn't mean that it's supposed to be happening.
     

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