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  1. #51  
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    Quote Originally Posted by m00 View Post
    I completely agree with you.
    THEN HOW COULD YOU VOTE FOR THE MAN?


    But people I know who voted for Obama... all had very complex motivations. Some of it was social issues... some of it was the "war on women" which I blame the media for, but also Romney not being very clear and dropping his support for Todd Akin... some of it was people thinking that Romney has more/worse Wall Street cronies than Obama because remember that Romney supported at least some of the bailouts (as I recall from one of the primary debates)... Romney really just came across as this weird, robotic, untrustworthy billionaire, with no solid convictions. The Bain stuff was probably what really did him in, in my opinion.
    I doubt it was really the Bain stuff. Most people can't follow the process of what firms like Bain do. What people do understand is sex and other venal sins. The "war on women" was an invention, aided and abetted by a few ill-timed quotes that reflect a philosophically consistent pro-life position. The fact is that it was Obama's administration that ignored the good of women, as more and more women (and their children) slipped into poverty. It was Obama's administration that ignored (and is ignoring) the assault on education, where women make up so much of the work force. It was Obama's administration that allowed the misogynist Muslim brotherhood to gain a foothold in nations like Egypt, where they did not have such a foothold before. It was Obama who bowed to the Saudi royal, a bloated worm who runs a nation that treats women like property.

    Romney had his faults, but the conservative message does not: self reliance, cutting taxes, saving money and investing it wisely, letting the free market (and not the government) pick winners and losers, especially on Wall Street. Self discipline, self control, love of family, love of God and of something outside oneself, charity to others, respect of others and their property--these were ALL basics until recently.

    Keep in mind nobody I know who voted for Obama was happy with his first term. They just felt Romney would be worse. Take that as you will, but I think it was Romney's race to lose and he lost it.
    THEN WHY DID THEY VOTE FOR THE MAN?

    If they couldn't bear throwing a vote toward Romney, then why not vote Green? Why vote for someone who clearly does not stand for traditional left wing values and who seems hell bent on destroying conservative values as well? The man is soulless--an empty suit. That has NOT changed since my PUMA days.
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  2. #52  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockntractor View Post
    I am getting very tired of your smart assed replies. If you don't like conservatives or who we are and what we stand for get your ass somewhere else.
    I think we both want the same thing here, Rock. Ultimately we want a honest, authentic, consistent, thoughtful conservative from outside the beltway who believes in small-government and personal freedoms, and isn't beholden to any of the classic "corporate welfare" sectors -- banking, finance, energy, auto, etc... to be elected. Someone whose sole litmus test for judges is "do they understand the constitution, and will they follow it." And not just elected to the presidency, but really to all levels in Federal government.

    If that's what you stand for, we stand for the same thing.

    What we're arguing about seems to be how to accomplish this goal. Obviously you disagree with me, but I think it's counter-productive (and also against my own experience) to paint liberal democrats as bad people or be insulting (unless it's DU, where they are complete lunatics). In most cases I think it's sufficient to just say they are wrong and then explain why... because you don't bring people to your side by belittling them. In my opinion, this is why Reagan was so successful at converting Democrats.
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  3. #53  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    THEN WHY DID THEY VOTE FOR THE MAN?

    If they couldn't bear throwing a vote toward Romney, then why not vote Green? Why vote for someone who clearly does not stand for traditional left wing values and who seems hell bent on destroying conservative values as well? The man is soulless--an empty suit. That has NOT changed since my PUMA days.
    Same reason most Republicans held their nose and voted for Romney. If a vote for Gary Johnson is a vote for Obama, then by that logic a vote for the Green party is a vote for Romney. I happen to disagree with this logic, but unfortunately I'm in a minority opinion.
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  4. #54  
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    Quote Originally Posted by m00 View Post
    to paint liberal democrats as bad people or be insulting (unless it's DU, where they are complete lunatics). In most cases I think it's sufficient to just say they are wrong and then explain why... because you don't bring people to your side by belittling them. In my opinion, this is why Reagan was so successful at converting Democrats.
    Damn, my corporate kumbaya conference isn't till tomorrow!

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  5. #55  
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    Quote Originally Posted by m00 View Post
    Same reason most Republicans held their nose and voted for Romney. If a vote for Gary Johnson is a vote for Obama, then by that logic a vote for the Green party is a vote for Romney. I happen to disagree with this logic, but unfortunately I'm in a minority opinion.
    Actually, your logic is incorrect here.

    Most Republicans held their noses and voted Romney because they still believed in the party and its conservative principles, despite the specific man running. Romney's choice of Ryan signaled an anti-deficit, anti-tax slant that most of the conservative base could get behind, despite Romney's personality and his previous flip flops. His backing of Mourdock sealed the deal with many pro-life voters.

    Most Democrats held their noses and voted for Obama because they still believed in Obama despite the fact that the man and his party had betrayed the liberal principles over and over again. The Dems had majorities in both houses when Obama took office in 2009, and had the party stuck to its real principles, Wall Street would have been really punished for the massive 2008 theft and crash; a health care plan would have been, at least in part, single payer (and not another tax on individuals, as was argued to SCOTUS); poverty, especially among women and children, would have gone DOWN and not up (as Cornel West has desperately wanted); drones would not be spying on American citizens; NDAA would never have been passed signalling the de facto end of the 4th amendment; Gitmo would have been REALLY closed--I can go on and on here.

    So the Democrats actually did the OPPOSITE of what the GOP did. Republicans had faith in their party's general adherence to conservative principles, and held their noses to vote for the figurehead who won the primaries. Democrats had NO FAITH that either their party or their president subscribed to any core liberal principles at all, but held their nose in the hope that Obama, deep down, was really a liberal, and that a second term would "unleash" him. In other words, they were still voting for hope and change--this time the hope that their leader's--and their party's- behavior might change.


    When you have doubts about the leader but faith in the party apparatus, you can still vote the party.
    When you have lost faith in your party, you need to vote another.
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  6. #56  
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    Quote Originally Posted by m00 View Post
    Obviously you disagree with me, but I think it's counter-productive (and also against my own experience) to paint liberal democrats as bad people or be insulting (unless it's DU, where they are complete lunatics). In most cases I think it's sufficient to just say they are wrong and then explain why... because you don't bring people to your side by belittling them. In my opinion, this is why Reagan was so successful at converting Democrats.
    Not speaking for Rock per se but I think it should be said at some point there is a diff between Dem voters and Dem leaders. Generally speaking Dem leaders are the 'bad' people. Some voters are stupid. Most are uninformed or ill informed. Big diff between stupid and ignorant. Ignorant can learn when presented with facts. Stupid cannot. And big diff between deceivers and the deceived. At least in my mind.

    So when I refer to dems as 'bad people' or 'evil' (not sure I'd actually use those terms) I am most likely referring to the 'leadership' as are most folk here I would imagine.
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  7. #57  
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    I think conservatives have a powerful and influential opponent when it comes to winning elections, that being a severely liberal biased media. Now how do you rectify that without trampling all over the 1st amendment.

    I think a long term solution is to wrest control of the nations educational system from the fed and return it to state & local entities.
    The 21st century. The age of Smart phones and Stupid people.

    It is said that branches draw their life from the vine. Each is separate yet all are one as they share one life giving stem . The Bible tells us we are called to a similar union in life, our lives with the life of God. We are incorporated into him; made sharers in his life. Apart from this union we can do nothing.
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  8. #58  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janice View Post
    Not speaking for Rock per se but I think it should be said at some point there is a diff between Dem voters and Dem leaders. Generally speaking Dem leaders are the 'bad' people. Some voters are stupid. Most are uninformed or ill informed. Big diff between stupid and ignorant. Ignorant can learn when presented with facts. Stupid cannot. And big diff between deceivers and the deceived. At least in my mind.

    So when I refer to dems as 'bad people' or 'evil' (not sure I'd actually use those terms) I am most likely referring to the 'leadership' as are most folk here I would imagine.
    I think you said that rather well.
    The difference between pigs and people is that when they tell you you're cured it isn't a good thing.
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  9. #59  
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    Does SR know that Rove is being tossed under the bus? Gonna need a new av bud.

    And y'all need to quit your bitching. The Republican party is not dead. Conservatism is not dead. Republicans have only unseated a sitting DUmmy president once in the last 100 years. It's a difficult thing to do and we were playing from behind the entire time. 59 million votes for a candidate that no one wanted running. I'm not sweating the future.
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  10. #60  
    PORCUS MAXIMUS Rockntractor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    Does SR know that Rove is being tossed under the bus? Gonna need a new av bud.

    And y'all need to quit your bitching. The Republican party is not dead. Conservatism is not dead. Republicans have only unseated a sitting DUmmy president once in the last 100 years. It's a difficult thing to do and we were playing from behind the entire time. 59 million votes for a candidate that no one wanted running. I'm not sweating the future.
    Oh please, I saw a group of republicans just the other day toss a mans wallet and try to eat his brains.
    The difference between pigs and people is that when they tell you you're cured it isn't a good thing.
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