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  1. #211  
    Senior Member txradioguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generation Why? View Post
    Again, I agree. The anti-theists and militant minority religions have gone way too far with this issue. Just remember, there are more anti-theists than there are atheists. Atheists don't really care all too much. It's the militant ones, the anti-theists, that cause the issues.
    On this we agree. To the militant ones...it's turned into a religion of it's own.
    In Memory Of My Friend 1st Sgt. Tim Millsap A Co, 70th Eng. Bn. 3rd Bde 1st AD...K.I.A. 25 April 2005

    Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

    To Achieve Ordered Liberty You Must Have Moral Order As Well

    The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.
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  2. #212  
    Senior Member txradioguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generation Why? View Post
    Could you elaborate a bit, tx? This is good healthy conversation. Let's keep it going.
    You have to keep in mind that the FF's came from a country where there was only one recognized church, the Church of England. With the kind as the head of the Church.

    Persecution was the name of the game if you were anything else.

    The FF's were very against having that kind of Theocracy set up again in the U.S.

    So in the 1st Amendment they said "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." to prevent the future Government of the U.S. from establishing "The Church of America".

    Now if the President went on tv tomorrow and said that "By executive order I'm establishing that the Baptist Faith is from this day forward THE religion of the U.S. and all other faiths are hereby not recognized." THEN there would be a clear and accurate violation of the establishment clause.

    This other crap...saying a prayer before a football game...having a nativity scene on a military base..."In God We Trust" on money is NOT a violation.

    All of these cases that Small Peter cited...are actually in violation of the 1st Amendment as it's written.

    Everything changed towards the militant Atheists favor in IRRC 1969 when an Activist Supreme Court Ruled in favor of Madeline Murray O'Haire when she said that a prayer before the start of school was a violation.

    That opened the pandora's box for the Liberals to throw everything under the sun...from flag burning to pole dancing under the protection of the 1st Amendment...when none of it is actually covered.

    If any of these Libtard assclowns like Nova or Small Peter would ever have the balls to go to a Muslim country...THEN they'd see in practice what they falsely claim is happening here.
    In Memory Of My Friend 1st Sgt. Tim Millsap A Co, 70th Eng. Bn. 3rd Bde 1st AD...K.I.A. 25 April 2005

    Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

    To Achieve Ordered Liberty You Must Have Moral Order As Well

    The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.
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  3. #213  
    Senior Member txradioguy's Avatar
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    FWIW...Small Peter's argument isn't working over at CC either.

    For those that post at both places check out the anti-religious screeds of one "Sam Dodd".

    He's saying the exact same things.
    In Memory Of My Friend 1st Sgt. Tim Millsap A Co, 70th Eng. Bn. 3rd Bde 1st AD...K.I.A. 25 April 2005

    Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

    To Achieve Ordered Liberty You Must Have Moral Order As Well

    The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.
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  4. #214  
    Senior Member txradioguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterS View Post
    They are tripe in that they are irrelivant to Rule of Law.
    Why? Please explain.
    In Memory Of My Friend 1st Sgt. Tim Millsap A Co, 70th Eng. Bn. 3rd Bde 1st AD...K.I.A. 25 April 2005

    Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

    To Achieve Ordered Liberty You Must Have Moral Order As Well

    The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.
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  5. #215  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterS View Post
    Jefferson believed that religion was between Man and his God not man, his god, and his government. This is the principle of seperation and it is a principle that goes both ways not just one. You cannot inject religious beliefs into government, and govenrment is prevented from stopping you, and have a country based on religious freedom. It simple does not work for somewhere the establishment of those religious tenets interferes with someone elses beliefs. Therefore the only way for religious freedom to exist is for religion to be left out of government...
    But to remove every vestige of religion from government would end up censoring history. For example, the founders of Los Angeles were Catholic missionaries from Spain. The cross was part of the city's coat of arms until a couple of years ago, when the ACLU sued to have it removed and the city complied. The Pilgrims were Christian rebels against the crown, who were seeking an escape from the decadence of the Church of England. The founding documents reference God in more places than I can count. Even our most American holiday, Thanksgiving, has a religious basis, as the original and subsequent proclamations specifically referred to thanking God. Shall we eliminate Thanksgiving from the calendar because a day off offends those who have nobody to thank? Every member of the congress, not to mention the president, are sworn in on Bibles when they assume office. Each session of congress and the Supreme Court begins with a chaplain's invocation. Does that violate the rights of the non-believers?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterS View Post
    How is that? To not mention one therefore cannot inject the tenets of nor belief in god into government...else Church is part of State is this not correct?
    No.

    Church, as defined by the founders, was a specific institution, literally an "establishment of religion". It meant that you could not favor one church over another. That meant that there could be no single, approved Church of the USA on the model of the Church of England, with membership in the church as a prerequisite for voting, holding office or owning property. It didn't mean that any mention of religious faith had to be excised from the public world. There was an underlying assumption in all of our founding documents that there was a God, but that worship was up to the individual and his church, not the government. The government would not dictate doctrine, and the church would not be a part of the apparatus of the state. That is what Jefferson meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterS View Post
    The notion of secularism is very much a product of the Reformation. The development of modern secularism stems from devout Christians who were aghast at the devastation caused by the religious wars that swept across Europe. In Protestant countries there was initially an attempt to translate the principles of the religious community into the wider political community; that, however, failed due to the growing divisions between Christian sects. This forced a reduction of overt and explicit references to specific Christian doctrines...reliance upon Christianity, if it remained, became more general and more rationalized. In the end, political and cultural secularism occurred because of Christians who realized that overtly Christians states did far more harm than good.

    Secularism is neither a right of government nor ideology solely of atheism but a philosophy whereby the beliefs of one are separate but equal to the beliefs of another. And I might add this is the basis principle that freedom is built upon.

    To strip secularism from government is no different than to strip freedom from ourselves....
    Your history is a bit faulty. Secularism didn't come out of the Reformation. If anything, it exacerbated the church/state connections in Europe by empowering local leaders to defy the Catholic Church by setting up their own churches and collecting the tithes that had formerly gone to the Catholic Church. Henry VIII enriched himself by confiscating the abbeys of England, and the Church of England assumed control of the properties of the Catholic Church. This pattern was repeated in Holland and the German principalities. Catholic Europe responded by making the Church even more central to the governments. The French kings persecuted the Hegeunots, for example, even going so far as to lay siege to cities that had declared themselves to be sanctuaries. The Spanish Crown supported the Inquisition, domestically, and waged war on Protestant England and Holland. The Reformation was many things, but secular wasn't one of them.

    Secularism didn't come into its own until the French Revolution, which deliberately sought to subdue the church through every means possible. The French policy of laïcité, which was instituted during the Jacobin period, was one of the most violent repressions of Christians ever seen outside of the Muslim world. Over 30,000 clergy were exiled, with hundreds killed, all church property was confiscated, even the Christian calendar was banned and replaced with the Revolutionary Calendar, which began with the date of the start of the revolution. Over 40,000 churches were confiscated or destroyed, and the icons were confiscated. Public symbols of worship, like crosses and bells, were destroyed. They even instituted a civic "Cult of Reason" to replace the church. The height of the persecution occured when the rnment required all clergy to swear an oath of loyalty to the Civil Constitution of the Clergy. Those that refused became "non-jurors" or "refractory priests", and the law permitted them to be killed on sight. Eventually, this led to the War in the Vendée. It even caused external wars, forcing Pope Pius VI to join the First Coalition and triggering Napoleon Bonaparte's Italian campaign. The policies of secularization in France plunged the entire continent into war.
    --Odysseus
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  6. #216  
    Senior Member Generation Why?'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txradioguy View Post
    People like GW...don't believe...but they aren't going to try and persicute or prosicute those that do belive...like you and others would be eager to do.
    Winner, winner! Thank you for the kind words. However it isn't always an attempt to persecute or prosecute. Sometimes, and I know you know this being a Senior NCO, it is a lack of tact.
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  7. #217  
    Senior Member Generation Why?'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    But to remove every vestige of religion from government would end up censoring history. For example, the founders of Los Angeles were Catholic missionaries from Spain. The cross was part of the city's coat of arms until a couple of years ago, when the ACLU sued to have it removed and the city complied. The Pilgrims were Christian rebels against the crown, who were seeking an escape from the decadence of the Church of England. The founding documents reference God in more places than I can count. Even our most American holiday, Thanksgiving, has a religious basis, as the original and subsequent proclamations specifically referred to thanking God. Shall we eliminate Thanksgiving from the calendar because a day off offends those who have nobody to thank? Every member of the congress, not to mention the president, are sworn in on Bibles when they assume office. Each session of congress and the Supreme Court begins with a chaplain's invocation. Does that violate the rights of the non-believers?



    I don't see people taking issue with history pointing out that Los Angeles was founded by Catholics and Pilgrims were Christian. Those are fact. It's not proseltyzing. Well at least I hope people don't take issue with it.
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  8. #218  
    Senior Member txradioguy's Avatar
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    Ody...did you see where this group called The Association of Athiests and Free Thinkers is pressuring incoming members of Congress and the President to not take the oath of office on the Bible next month?
    In Memory Of My Friend 1st Sgt. Tim Millsap A Co, 70th Eng. Bn. 3rd Bde 1st AD...K.I.A. 25 April 2005

    Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

    To Achieve Ordered Liberty You Must Have Moral Order As Well

    The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.
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  9. #219  
    Senior Member Generation Why?'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txradioguy View Post
    Ody...did you see where this group called The Association of Athiests and Free Thinkers is pressuring incoming members of Congress and the President to not take the oath of office on the Bible next month?
    Like I said, the same people who don't like religion, especially organized, form an organization. It's Pot and Kettle. Also, if it didn't offend anyone, I would totally swear in on the Bible.
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  10. #220  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generation Why? View Post
    I don't see people taking issue with history pointing out that Los Angeles was founded by Catholics and Pilgrims were Christian. Those are fact. It's not proseltyzing. Well at least I hope people don't take issue with it.
    They already have.
    ACLU May Sue L.A. County Over Seal

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,121039,00.html
    Published May 27, 2004
    FoxNews.com




    The American Civil Liberties Union (search) plans to sue Los Angeles County if it does not remove a cross from its official seal.
    County officials say the cross represents the Spanish missions (search), which are part of California's history.

    They add that it would be expensive to redesign the county seal, which was designed in 1957 and appears on most official county property: walls, documents, water bottles, uniforms, cars and trucks.

    On Friday, the ACLU gave the county two weeks to eliminate the seal.

    "What is the message that it sends?" said Ramona Ripson of the ACLU. "What that message is to everyone in California is one of Christianity, and we are a state of diverse people."

    Last month, the threat of litigation by the ACLU forced the city of Redlands, about 50 miles east of Los Angeles, to redesign its 40-year-old logo, which also included a cross.

    "Here you have this radical left-wing organization whose own symbol should be the hammer and sickle," said Mike Antonovich (search), one of five Los Angeles County supervisors. "They are using pressure tactics trying to rewrite history."

    Some local officials argue that the cross simply reflects history. The ACLU says that shouldn't matter because some members of the public find it offensive.
    The county has asked its lawyers for a legal opinion on whether to fight the ACLU.



    The county capitulated and removed the seal.

    Quote Originally Posted by txradioguy View Post
    Ody...did you see where this group called The Association of Athiests and Free Thinkers is pressuring incoming members of Congress and the President to not take the oath of office on the Bible next month?
    No, but it doesn't surprise me. Apparently, free thinking only applies to their way of thinking.
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