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  1. #221  
    Senior Member Generation Why?'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    They already have.
    I don't think that was done with the intent of removing history. Taking it off the city's crest doesn't take it out of the history books. But I see your point


    No, but it doesn't surprise me. Apparently, free thinking only applies to their way of thinking.
    Everyone knows you Judeo-Christian followers don't know the first thing about free thinking.... Hail Zorp!
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  2. #222  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generation Why? View Post
    I don't think that was done with the intent of removing history. Taking it off the city's crest doesn't take it out of the history books. But I see your point
    Yeah, but it does take the history out of the crest itself. The intent is not so much to rewrite history (although they will gladly do that when the opportunity arises) as to impose their will and establish precedents. Los Angeles' capitulation can now be cited when they impose their agenda on other government agencies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Generation Why? View Post
    Everyone knows you Judeo-Christian followers don't know the first thing about free thinking.... Hail Zorp!
    Ah, you Reasonablists are all alike...
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  3. #223  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterS View Post
    So once again you are making the argument that the founders didn't intend us to be free. So why is it you screech so much when you perceive you freedom being encroached upon?
    The founders' idea of "free" differs greatly from yours.

    The founders were concerned with political and economic freedom from Great Britain (hence the war) and, later, with insuring that government did not interfere any more than was absolutely necessary in the life of citizens (Bill of Rights, Separation of Powers, Tenth Amendment acknowledging the power of individual states, etc.)

    Essentially, the founders' idea of freedom was freedom from governmental intrusion into the normal life of the citizen. Their idea of religious freedom was NOT atheism, but freedom from coercion to belong to a particular official church and finance it unwillingly and under penalty of law.

    Freedom was the overall concept: religion was included in that concept. A free people would be free to choose their religion, their church, as well as their level of allegiance and support. A free people could also choose not to belong to any church and could not be imprisoned, exiled, tortured or killed for not doing so (as they often were in Europe). That was freedom.

    Freedom crucially was NOT the banning by the government of any religious practice at all, even in the public square. As I pointed out before on this thread, it was not the government (nor the atheists, for that matter) who started the long march of secularism in the public schools: it was a Catholic bishop whose immigrant flock felt that the public schools were "too Protestant" in their prayers and instruction, and were too unaccepting of the poor Irish-Catholic immigrants. (The Irish-Catholic vs English-Protestant fight was just carried over the Atlantic from the homeland and fought out in New York.) It was that Catholic bishop who in the 1840s demanded state money to start schools for Irish-Catholics, and, when he did not get it, played politics, got some friendly politicos elected, and got these politicos to outlaw all religious instruction in New York public schools using First Amendment arguments.

    I don't think the founders ever thought that would happen.
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  4. #224  
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    I saw something today that made me smile. Wife and I went to Pittman, NJ to see a Christmas display that this one family has been putting up for 45 years. Well, hanging across their main street, this:


    I had forgotten that this created a shitstorm last year but the sign is tied to private property and high enough not to hinder traffic to these anti-Christmas yo-yo's can't do anything about it. They tried and failed miserably.
    The Obama Administration: Deny. Deflect. Blame.
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  5. #225  
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    Excellent!
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  6. #226  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post

    Ah, you Reasonablists are all alike...
    We are also keeping the flute and recorder industry alive.
    A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others. Ayn Rand

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  7. #227  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    The founders' idea of "free" differs greatly from yours.

    The founders were concerned with political and economic freedom from Great Britain (hence the war) and, later, with insuring that government did not interfere any more than was absolutely necessary in the life of citizens (Bill of Rights, Separation of Powers, Tenth Amendment acknowledging the power of individual states, etc.)

    Essentially, the founders' idea of freedom was freedom from governmental intrusion into the normal life of the citizen. Their idea of religious freedom was NOT atheism, but freedom from coercion to belong to a particular official church and finance it unwillingly and under penalty of law.

    Freedom was the overall concept: religion was included in that concept. A free people would be free to choose their religion, their church, as well as their level of allegiance and support. A free people could also choose not to belong to any church and could not be imprisoned, exiled, tortured or killed for not doing so (as they often were in Europe). That was freedom.
    If I could choose to not belong to a church then I assume it meant that if I were a deist, agnostic, or atheist that would be fine. So how is it we are talking about different things? Also, I never argued that the founders idea of freedom was atheism. I would appreciate if you would stick to my arguments and not insert yours as part of mine...

    Freedom crucially was NOT the banning by the government of any religious practice at all, even in the public square. As I pointed out before on this thread, it was not the government (nor the atheists, for that matter) who started the long march of secularism in the public schools: it was a Catholic bishop whose immigrant flock felt that the public schools were "too Protestant" in their prayers and instruction, and were too unaccepting of the poor Irish-Catholic immigrants. (The Irish-Catholic vs English-Protestant fight was just carried over the Atlantic from the homeland and fought out in New York.) It was that Catholic bishop who in the 1840s demanded state money to start schools for Irish-Catholics, and, when he did not get it, played politics, got some friendly politicos elected, and got these politicos to outlaw all religious instruction in New York public schools using First Amendment arguments.

    I don't think the founders ever thought that would happen.
    Jefferson did, his proposal for the University of Virginia included no religious professorships nor classes and his proposal for public schools included no religion teaching as part of curriculum. With respect to the University of Virginia he said: "In conformity with the principles of our Constitution, which places all sects of religion on an equal footing... we have proposed no professor of divinity ... Proceeding thus far without offence to the Constitution, we have thought it proper at this point to leave every sect to provide, as they think fittest, the means of further instruction in their own peculiar tenets."

    That sounds pretty secular to me...
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  8. #228  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterS View Post
    Also, I never argued that the founders idea of freedom was atheism.
    You implied it here:




    I would appreciate if you would stick to my arguments and not insert yours as part of mine...
    Well, you'll just have to remain unappreciative.




    Jefferson did, his proposal for the University of Virginia included no religious professorships nor classes and his proposal for public schools included no religion teaching as part of curriculum. With respect to the University of Virginia he said: "In conformity with the principles of our Constitution, which places all sects of religion on an equal footing... we have proposed no professor of divinity ... Proceeding thus far without offence to the Constitution, we have thought it proper at this point to leave every sect to provide, as they think fittest, the means of further instruction in their own peculiar tenets."

    That sounds pretty secular to me...
    Jefferson did not write the Constitution or the Bill or Rights. He was in France at the time, watching the revolutionary zeitgeist turn ugly. You'd do far better to quote from James Madison and George Mason, especially in regard to the Bill of Rights and the First of its amendments.
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  9. #229  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterS View Post
    If I could choose to not belong to a church then I assume it meant that if I were a deist, agnostic, or atheist that would be fine. So how is it we are talking about different things? Also, I never argued that the founders idea of freedom was atheism. I would appreciate if you would stick to my arguments and not insert yours as part of mine...



    Jefferson did, his proposal for the University of Virginia included no religious professorships nor classes and his proposal for public schools included no religion teaching as part of curriculum. With respect to the University of Virginia he said: "In conformity with the principles of our Constitution, which places all sects of religion on an equal footing... we have proposed no professor of divinity ... Proceeding thus far without offence to the Constitution, we have thought it proper at this point to leave every sect to provide, as they think fittest, the means of further instruction in their own peculiar tenets."

    That sounds pretty secular to me...
    Still haven't grasped the meaning of the Establishment Clause have you Small Peter?
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  10. #230  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    You implied it here:

    This country was founded as a melting pot of religious beliefs. In such a country you cannot have the freedom to believe as you wish when religion and government combine. This has nothing to do with atheism and everything to do with liberty and the freedom of our beliefs...

    Well, you'll just have to remain unappreciative.
    Then you argument is against yourself and only a fool argues against his self...


    Jefferson did not write the Constitution or the Bill or Rights. He was in France at the time, watching the revolutionary zeitgeist turn ugly. You'd do far better to quote from James Madison and George Mason, especially in regard to the Bill of Rights and the First of its amendments.
    Your argument was with regard to secularism in education and I presented a quote from one of our most influential founders and the father of public education. My quote directly applied to what you argued.
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