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  1. #11  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    The problem in Afghanistan is not that we lack cultural awareness, it's that we are all too aware of the nature of the culture, and we find it repellent. Whitewashing this with a PC manual won't hide the hateful, inbred, backward, violent sickness of the culture. A people who murder or mutilate little girls for the crime of wanting an education deserve our contempt. There is a reason that we are at war with the Taliban, and a reason that they harbored Bin Laden. Their worldview is one in which women and children are chattel to men, and men are kept ignorant and in thrall to the revelations of an illiterate 7th century thug. Our culture may have its problems, but they are the problems that come with liberty, and I'll take it any day over theirs.
    --Odysseus
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    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
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  2. #12  
    Senior Member Molon Labe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    The problem in Afghanistan is not that we lack cultural awareness, it's that we are all too aware of the nature of the culture, and we find it repellent.
    All the more reason to ask yourself everyday why anyone would want to save any of them with even 1 American life.
    Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound - Unknown


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  3. #13  
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    This is the sort of thing that will keep good people out of the armed services.

    I left the navy in 1971. It was right after the draft had been abolished. Servicemen were looked down upon, and most of us took some effort to disguise our affiliation. And we weren't getting any good people. It was awful.

    I can see it all happening again, even in my family. There is lots a "support our heroes" talk, but even more "not my son" talk.
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  4. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by linda22003 View Post
    That's fine. Don't spend time and energy badmouthing the Taliban. Just SHOOT them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    The problem in Afghanistan is not that we lack cultural awareness, it's that we are all too aware of the nature of the culture, and we find it repellent. Whitewashing this with a PC manual won't hide the hateful, inbred, backward, violent sickness of the culture. A people who murder or mutilate little girls for the crime of wanting an education deserve our contempt. There is a reason that we are at war with the Taliban, and a reason that they harbored Bin Laden. Their worldview is one in which women and children are chattel to men, and men are kept ignorant and in thrall to the revelations of an illiterate 7th century thug. Our culture may have its problems, but they are the problems that come with liberty, and I'll take it any day over theirs.
    We're well in agreement.
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  5. #15  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
    All the more reason to ask yourself everyday why anyone would want to save any of them with even 1 American life.
    A couple of years ago, I'd have argued that failed states breed terror, and the option to try had to be attempted, but I've come to the conclusion that the Romans had it right. We had no choice but to go into Afghanistan and turn out the Taliban after they harbored Bin Laden, but if we had to do it all over again, I think that leaving a salt flat where the Helmand Valley used to be makes more sense than trying to drag those troglodytes into the 21st century.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck View Post
    This is the sort of thing that will keep good people out of the armed services.

    I left the navy in 1971. It was right after the draft had been abolished. Servicemen were looked down upon, and most of us took some effort to disguise our affiliation. And we weren't getting any good people. It was awful.

    I can see it all happening again, even in my family. There is lots a "support our heroes" talk, but even more "not my son" talk.
    I try to be polite when people who I don't know, and who don't know me, thank me for my service, but there are times when I wonder if they are just going through the motions. Kipling got it right in 1890:

    I WENT into a public 'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
    The publican 'e up an' sez, " We serve no red-coats here."
    The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
    I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
    O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, go away " ;
    But it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play
    The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
    O it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play.

    I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
    They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
    They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
    But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
    For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, wait outside ";
    But it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide
    The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
    O it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide.

    Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
    Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap.
    An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
    Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
    Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
    But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
    The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
    O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.

    We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
    But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
    An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
    Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
    While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, fall be'ind,"
    But it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind
    There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
    O it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.

    You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
    We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
    Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
    The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
    For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Chuck him out, the brute! "
    But it's " Saviour of 'is country " when the guns begin to shoot;
    An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
    An 'Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!
    And it still holds true today:

    We aren't made for cool Britannia; we leave boot marks on the floor.
    We don't walk like Peter Mandelson or talk quite like Jack Straw.
    Call us "forces of conservatism" if it suits your turn
    But we're off like some world fire brigade when flash-points start to burn.
    Yes it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' spend less on defence,
    But who walks the streets of Basra when the air is getting tense?
    When the air is getting tense, boys, from Kabul to Kosovo
    Who'll say goodbye to wife and kids, and shoulder pack and go?


    The Queen, she's sat in Windsor now for 50 years or more.
    She'll see this government depart like other ones before.
    And Blair and Bush and Chirac make their plans to no avail
    But who remains to serve the Crown when politicians fail?
    O it's Tommy change your values - now diversity's the game;
    But when Christmas leave is cancelled, then whose tyrants are to blame?
    There's tyrants in the mountains, boys, and tyrants in he sands,
    So farewell to wives and risk your lives for them in foreign lands.
    --Odysseus
    Sic Hacer Pace, Para Bellum.

    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
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  6. #16  
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    Heh, Heh....well, I'm pretty sure Kipling didn't write the last verse, but I love the poem, says I, who can recite "The Cremation of Sam McGee" from memory. If you hadn't told me who wrote it I would have guessed Robert Service.

    There is a wonderful movie out called "My Boy Jack". Not only is it the true story of Kipling's son being lost in WW I, but it was filmed on the very site where the melodrama took place - the Kipling house. The lead part is played by Daniel Radcliff, of Harry Potter fame, and he does a solid job of playing a young man not well suited for the army but resolved to act out his father's wishes.

    After you see it you will want to sit in a quiet room for a long time, thinking about it.
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  7. #17  
    SEAduced SuperMod Hawkgirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
    All the more reason to ask yourself everyday why anyone would want to save any of them with even 1 American life.
    Because they multiply and are hopeful they will one day take over the world. They also preach Kill the Infidel whether we are there or not. They are a cancer, and without push back, they will spread. It's really that basic.
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  8. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    A couple of years ago, I'd have argued that failed states breed terror, and the option to try had to be attempted, but I've come to the conclusion that the Romans had it right. We had no choice but to go into Afghanistan and turn out the Taliban after they harbored Bin Laden, but if we had to do it all over again, I think that leaving a salt flat where the Helmand Valley used to be makes more sense than trying to drag those troglodytes into the 21st century........................
    I know what you mean. Our (your and mine) evolution on this point is why I hesitate before I call anyone a flip-flopper. The problem appears to be that we didn't take away all their guns and didn't kill enough of them.

    I believer we are at war with Iran, it's just that no one talks about it. Mysterious explosions, assassinations, virus attacks, drones overhead; all of these things are my kind of war. We still need Johnny and his gun, I believe, but Johnny needs to want to be a member of SEAL Team 6, and needs to be supported by lots of quiet, resolved, professionals.
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  9. #19  
    Senior Member Molon Labe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkgirl View Post
    Because they multiply and are hopeful they will one day take over the world. They also preach Kill the Infidel whether we are there or not. They are a cancer, and without push back, they will spread. It's really that basic.
    I disagree. Without Oil they are nothing. There are not enough people on the earth, even in this religion, who have the necessary numbers of suicidal tendancies to achieve this. This is pure fantasy. Nothing basic about it.
    Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound - Unknown


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  10. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
    I disagree. Without Oil they are nothing. There are not enough people on the earth, even in this religion, who have the necessary numbers of suicidal tendancies to achieve this. This is pure fantasy. Nothing basic about it.
    That's pretty much how I see it. If we can develop natural gas to the point that we have eliminated middle east oil from our imports the Arab countries could dry up and blow away as far as we are concerned. As it is, we import something in the order of 3 million barrels a day from them, and a very large portion of that money ends up being used for weapons to be used against us.

    No oil, no jihadists. No jihadists, no need for 5 super carrier groups to be on station. It would be a different USA, and a better one at that.
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