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  1. #21  
    Moderator txradioguy's Avatar
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    The answer is never.
    In Memory Of My Friend 1st Sgt. Tim Millsap A Co, 70th Eng. Bn. 3rd Bde 1st AD...K.I.A. 25 April 2005

    Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

    To Achieve Ordered Liberty You Must Have Moral Order As Well

    The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.
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  2. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJCardFan View Post
    The point is, the left is quick to politicize events like this to try to take guns away from law abiding citizens by not only blaming the gun but blaming the ideology of the majority of the gun owners. Face facts. Most gun owners are right leaning. Not all but most(in like a 55-45 majority is my guess). Well, my point is that in most cases(at least in recent memory) that in these mass shootings, the shooter's worldview is left leaning. We need to call this out. They are and as insensitive as it may sound, we need to point this out as well.
    It's a rather pointless pursuit, kind of like arguing over whether Hitler was a liberal or a conservative.

    Anyone offered as an example will be discounted by the left or right as it suits them.
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  3. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Hitler was a National Socialist, which was a movement of the left (their association with the right was one of Stalin's greatest propaganda coups).

    The Branch Davidians were pretty harmless, and if the ATF hadn't gone in shooting, there would not have been a standoff, and the FBI killed 80 people, not the Davidians.

    Jim Jones was a Marxist who used religion as a cover for tax exemptions and as a means of fundraising. The following comes from a paper (http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/AboutJones...Introvigne.htm) examining Jone's political beliefs: .........
    Like I said, any example offered will be defined-out. This is nothing new.

    No true Scotsman is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion.[1] When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim, rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule.
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  4. #24  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Like I said, any example offered will be defined-out. This is nothing new.

    No true Scotsman is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion.[1] When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim, rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule.
    So, you are arguing that the assertion that conservatives don't do mass murder is unreasoned, and that the counterexamples, Hitler, Branch Davidians and Jim Jones were not not countered, but that I was modifying the origininal assertion so as to exclude them? Nice try, but I specifically explained why Hitler and Jim Jones didn't qualify as conservatives, and the Branch Davidians didn't qualify as mass murderers (for that matter, one has to wonder if they were conservatives, either, since nobody, to my knowledge, ever produced anything from them that was remotely political). However, let's start with an objective rule: In order to qualify as a conservative, in the sense of the term applied today in the United States, let us stipulate that the following are conservative positions:
    Economic issues: Free market capitalism, private property rights and limited government
    Social Issues: A basic belief in (or respect for) religion. Opposition to welfare statism, abortion, gay marriage and other attempts at redefining marriage.
    Political Issues: Favors individual right to gun ownership, national sovereignty, free speech and the basic constitutional norms. Opposition to illegal immigration.

    Now, let us look at the Nazis. Hitler was a socialist and his party was called the National Socialist Workers Party, we can see that it's platform was explicitly socialist. Here it is:

    The Program of the National-Socialist (Nazi)
    German Workers’ Party
    (1933)

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Program of the German Workers’ Party is a program for our time. The leadership rejects the establishment of new aims after those set out in the Program have been achieved, for the sole purpose of making it possible for the Party to continue to exist as the result of the artificially stimulated dissatisfaction of the masses.

    1. We demand the uniting of all Germans within one Greater Germany, on the basis of the right to self-determination of nations.

    2. We demand equal rights for the German people (Volk) with respect to other nations, and the annulment of the peace treaty of Versailles and St. Germain.

    3. We demand land and soil (Colonies) to feed our People and settle our excess population.

    4. Only Nationals (Volksgenossen) can be Citizens of the State. Only persons of German blood can be Nationals, regardless of religious affiliation. No Jew can therefore be a German National.

    5. Any person who is not a Citizen will be able to live in Germany only as a guest and must be subject to legislation for Aliens.

    6. Only a Citizen is entitled to decide the leadership and laws of the State. We therefore demand that only Citizens may hold public office, regardless of whether it is a national, state or local office.

    We oppose the corrupting parliamentary custom of making party considerations, and not character and ability, the criterion for appointments to official positions.

    7. We demand that the State make it its duty to provide opportunities of employment first of all for its own Citizens. If it is not possible to maintain the entire population of the State, then foreign nationals (non-Citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.

    8. Any further immigration of non-Germans is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who entered Germany after August 2, 1914, be forced to leave the Reich without delay.

    9. All German Citizens must have equal rights and duties.

    10. It must be the first duty of every Citizen to carry out intellectual or physical work. Individual activity must not be harmful to the public interest and must be pursued within the framework of the community and for the general good.

    We therefore demand:

    11. The abolition of all income obtained without labor or effort.

    Breaking the Servitude of Interest.

    12. In view of the tremendous sacrifices in property and blood demanded of the nation by every war, personal gain from the war must be termed a crime against the nation. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

    13. We demand the nationalization of all enterprises (already) converted into corporations (trusts).

    14. We demand profit-sharing in large enterprises.

    15. We demand the large-scale development of old-age pension schemes.

    16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle class; the immediate communalization of the large department stores, which are to be leased at low rates to small tradesmen. We demand the most careful consideration for the owners of small businesses in orders placed by national, state, or community authorities.

    17. We demand land reform in accordance with our national needs and a law for expropriation without compensation of land for public purposes. Abolition of ground rent and prevention of all speculation in land.

    18. We demand ruthless battle against those who harm the common good by their activities. Persons committing base crimes against the People, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished by death without regard to religion or race.

    19. We demand the replacement of Roman Law, which serves a materialistic World Order, by German Law.

    20. In order to make higher education – and thereby entry into leading positions – available to every able and industrious German, the State must provide a thorough restructuring of our entire public educational system. The courses of study at all educational institutions are to be adjusted to meet the requirements of practical life. Understanding of the concept of the State must be achieved through the schools (teaching of civics) at the earliest age at which it can be grasped. We demand the education at the public expense of specially gifted children of poor parents, without regard to the latters’ position or occupation.

    21. The State must raise the level of national health by means of mother-and-child care, the banning of juvenile labor, achievements of physical fitness through legislation for compulsory gymnastics and sports, and maximum support for all organizations providing physical training for young people.

    22. We demand the abolition of hireling troops and the creation of a national army.

    23. We demand laws to fight against deliberate political lies and their dissemination by the press. In order to make it possible to create a German press, we demand:

    a) all editors and editorial employees of newspapers appearing in the German language must be German by race;

    b) non-German newspapers require express permission from the State for their publication. They may not be printed in the German language;

    c) any financial participation in a German newspaper or influence on such a paper is to be forbidden by law to non-Germans and the penalty for any breach of this law will be the closing of the newspaper in question, as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-Germans involved.

    Newspapers which violate the public interest are to be banned. We demand laws against trends in art and literature which have a destructive effect on our national life, and the suppression of performances that offend against the above requirements.

    24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations, provided that they do not endanger the existence of the State or offend the concepts of decency and morality of the Germanic race.

    The Party as such stands for positive Christianity, without associating itself with any particular denomination. It fights against the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a permanent revival of our nation can be achieved only from within, on the basis of:

    Public Interest before Private Interest.

    25. To carry out all the above we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the Reich. Unquestioned authority by the political central Parliament over the entire Reich and over its organizations in general. The establishment of trade and professional organizations to enforce the Reich basic laws in the individual states.

    The Party leadership promises to take an uncompromising stand, at the cost of their own lives if need be, on the enforcement of the above points.

    Munich, February 24, 1920.

    Das Programm der NSDAP

    ("The Program of the National-Socialist German Workers’ Party"), Berlin [1933].
    Hitler was not, by any measure, a conservative.

    Jim Jones was not a conservative, but a Marxist. Again, I provided proof of this in the previous threads.

    In the case of the Branch Davidians, the shooting was initiated by the ATF, which launched the raid. The subsequent mass killing was done by the FBI. Now, one can argue that ATF and FBI agents might be more conservative than the general population, but it's a stretch.

    Now, there have been some persons who meet enough of the criteria that I described to be considered conservatives, and who have resorted to political violence, but they are fairly rare. The first example are the fringes of the pro-life movement, who have bombed clinics or killed those who worked there.
    In the U.S., there have been eight murders of abortion providers or supporting personnel, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort. Please feel free to explain how this meets your "no true Scotsman" argument.
    --Odysseus
    Sic Hacer Pace, Para Bellum.

    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
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  5. #25  
    CU Royalty JB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart
    Like I said, any example offered will be defined-out. This is nothing new.
    Forget the socialist in the name of the party. Hitler was a dictator and the Nazis wanted the state to control everything...Lefty ideals. Hardly arguable at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    In the case of the Branch Davidians, the shooting was initiated by the ATF, which launched the raid. The subsequent mass killing was done by the FBI. Now, one can argue that ATF and FBI agents might be more conservative than the general population, but it's a stretch.
    Ordered by Reno and Clinton...therefore, Liberals.
    Be Not Afraid.
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