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  1. #1 European Courts Letting Fugitives Dodge 'Draconian' US Justice System 
    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    At first this bothered me then I thought that there might be a silver lining to this dark cloud. Before a judge sentences any of pedophiles, rapists or other deviants that enter his or her court, lets give Europe the opportunity to take them. Let them prey on their men, women and children for a few decades. I'm sure these perverts will adapt nicely to Europe's catch and release policy.

    Shawn Sullivan is a fugitive and accused pedophile, and to some, he's also a poster child for a European judicial system that often would rather let criminals roam their streets freely than see them subjected to American justice.


    Nearly 20 years ago, Sullivan, who is now 43, fled to Ireland after being charged with raping a 14-year-old girl and molesting two boys in Minnesota. Sullivan, who had dual citizenship, was accused of assaulting two girls in Ireland in 1997, but fled to London, where police finally caught up with him in June 2010. Although he did time in Wandsworth Prison for his crimes in the United Kingdom, when U.S. authorities sought to have him brought to justice on American soil, a British judge refused.


    The reason: The U.S. policy of committing repeat child molesters to civil confinement -- where they are kept off the streets even after completing prison terms -- was deemed too barbaric.


    "Minnesota’s law is said to be more Draconian than many others,” Lord Justice Moses of England’s High Court of Justice said in his ruling in June of last year. "...it is clear to me that were an order of civil commitment to be made, it would be a flagrant denial of this appellant’s rights."

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    Hopefully, the US would not extradite a person to a country where limbs are severed or where the penalty for simple drunk driving is life imprisonment. No, these do not compare to child molestation, but indeterminate sentences are considered a sign of a state which has gone over the edge legally.

    IT's better to have reasonable sentences for crimes, typically weighted against the penalty for murder, and to allow that rehabilitation is possible than it is to give in to public demands that all crimes deemed "tragic" are worthy of life in prison or execution.

    When our national peers will not extradite to the US because the punishment for all crimes could be sexual slavery and rape in a US prison (referring to Norway's refusal to extradite) then we need to examine how we are doing things. Simply declaring that we are the best and imperially correct doesn't cut it.
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    PORCUS MAXIMUS Rockntractor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Hopefully, the US would not extradite a person to a country where limbs are severed or where the penalty for simple drunk driving is life imprisonment. No, these do not compare to child molestation, but indeterminate sentences are considered a sign of a state which has gone over the edge legally.

    IT's better to have reasonable sentences for crimes, typically weighted against the penalty for murder, and to allow that rehabilitation is possible than it is to give in to public demands that all crimes deemed "tragic" are worthy of life in prison or execution.

    When our national peers will not extradite to the US because the punishment for all crimes could be sexual slavery and rape in a US prison (referring to Norway's refusal to extradite) then we need to examine how we are doing things. Simply declaring that we are the best and imperially correct doesn't cut it.
    I really don't understand you, the sentencing should be all about the damage they have done to their victims and most often repeat when they are released, we owe them nothing, getting less than a bullet is mercy for them but not for their future victims.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    At first this bothered me then I thought that there might be a silver lining to this dark cloud...<snip>
    Excellent idea. We won't have to house or feed them or pay for their therapy that will never work.

    Let the Euroweenies have them and keep them. We can even feign outrage over them not being returned and maybe scoring something elsewhere...like putting missle batterys in the Netherlands and pointing them at China or Russia. Or opening up a few CIA rendition spots in Germany.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockntractor View Post
    I really don't understand you, the sentencing should be all about the damage they have done to their victims and most often repeat when they are released, we owe them nothing, getting less than a bullet is mercy for them but not for their future victims.
    Sex crimes are arguably less damaging to the victim than murder... but the basis of my post was that back in the 1970's when public outcry over rape featured a common call for the death penalty, it was decided that making rape a capital crime would make juries less likely to convict.

    Moreover, one of the central tenets of our legal system is that punishments should not be "cruel or unusual". Well given that we hadn't existed as a country up to that point, the frame of reference for "unusual" had to be British law and punishment. Would it not? I'm not saying that if England were to jump in a lake that we should follow, but if other First World nations are uniformly different from America, and if our expectation of extradition relies upon that, then we need to have some kind of system in place in which we automatically assure the Lord High Judge of Wintershire that he won't be sending a detainee to America for a Sharia punishment.
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    Senior Member Apache's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Sex crimes are arguably less damaging to the victim than murder... .
    FUCK OFF AND DIE, BITCH!
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    PORCUS MAXIMUS Rockntractor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Sex crimes are arguably less damaging to the victim than murder... but the basis of my post was that back in the 1970's when public outcry over rape featured a common call for the death penalty, it was decided that making rape a capital crime would make juries less likely to convict.

    Moreover, one of the central tenets of our legal system is that punishments should not be "cruel or unusual". Well given that we hadn't existed as a country up to that point, the frame of reference for "unusual" had to be British law and punishment. Would it not? I'm not saying that if England were to jump in a lake that we should follow, but if other First World nations are uniformly different from America, and if our expectation of extradition relies upon that, then we need to have some kind of system in place in which we automatically assure the Lord High Judge of Wintershire that he won't be sending a detainee to America for a Sharia punishment.
    Most of these criminals repeat these crimes many times, if one of the victims was a close family member of yours I know you would be singing a different tune.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockntractor View Post
    Most of these criminals repeat these crimes many times, if one of the victims was a close family member of yours I know you would be singing a different tune.
    Of course you want anyone who harms your family to be dead. But we're discussing the law. We're also talking about a fairly broad range of crimes across a spectrum from lewd exhibition, to inappropriate touching, to molestation, to rape, to abduction, and worse. However, in past discussions many "experts" (I don't honestly know how someone is an expert on an unexplained phenomenon) have said that if you punish such crimes as if they were murder, then the perpetrator might figure that he has nothing to lose by killing the witness. I find that plausible.
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    PORCUS MAXIMUS Rockntractor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Of course you want anyone who harms your family to be dead. But we're discussing the law. We're also talking about a fairly broad range of crimes across a spectrum from lewd exhibition, to inappropriate touching, to molestation, to rape, to abduction, and worse. However, in past discussions many "experts" (I don't honestly know how someone is an expert on an unexplained phenomenon) have said that if you punish such crimes as if they were murder, then the perpetrator might figure that he has nothing to lose by killing the witness. I find that plausible.
    i seriously don't think we are trying to extradite any flashers from Europe nova.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockntractor View Post
    i seriously don't think we are trying to extradite any flashers from Europe nova.
    I wasn't actually thinking about flashers, but that's neither here nor there. As you said, when it's your kid, you want severe punishment.

    It's not like we consistently punish these crimes ourselves.

    The only real issue in this case appears to be indeterminate sentences. Sentences need to be fixed so a person can pay his debt to society . If he then reoffends, it's just the price of a just system. We have had the discussion here many times that the state cannot make a person's life safe or secure. As much as it pains us, this is also true of children. In most of these cases, as we know, the perp had access to the child through his relationship with the child's parent. Society could not have prevented that. Amazingly, the perp may get the exact same opportunity again and in the same way.
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