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  1. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    I want you to think about where gay rights was back before Stonewall.
    The gay rights movement started long before Stonewall. However, like all social movements, it did not have the organization or force of government and therefore neither has nor had an official position on anything or a leader who has the authority to speak for all gay people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    I remember a recording (which I can't find right now, dammit) in which the head of the NY Mattachine society was interviewed and he explained that gays did not want to marry and did not want to adopt children but just wanted to be left alone and not be treated as criminals.
    Frank Kameny was a brave and intellectual man. He was not a saint nor was he necessarily the godfather of gay rights. The point is that he was but one of many activists of his generation (b 1925). The Mattachine Society was influential mostly by inspiring the creation of other groups. However, in regard to your point, there were several major differences in these groups, their philosophies, and objectives and membership. Some of them were driven by self-styled radicals left over from the Beatniks. They tended to be the ones who claimed "gay liberation" as an objective. Gay liberation and gay rights would come to mean quite different things. Gay liberation was typical out-there radical crap, especially since it was joined at the hip with Flower Power and Free Love and a lot of the 1960's crappola. Most gay people found these gay-liberation groups to be undesirable and dated. So you saw "equal rights" groups arise. The funny thing is that the idiocy of the "special rights" accusation would have applied to gay-liberation but it doesn't apply to anything contemporary.

    Of course the gay-liberation crowd like to take credit for the gay rights movement but they did more to harm it after any help they originally generated. These would be the "so what" and "whatever" folks who say outlandish things which the religious right scoops up and regurgitates relentlessly.

    So yes, Virginia, there was a man a long time ago who said "We don't want to be equal, we just want to be left alone." He's dead now and his followers live in a commune in the mountains of Tennessee. Seriously, they do.
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  2. #32  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    The gay rights movement started long before Stonewall. However, like all social movements, it did not have the organization or force of government and therefore neither has nor had an official position on anything or a leader who has the authority to speak for all gay people.
    Actually, there are certain nexus groups, including the Human Rights Campaign, that, in fact, do speak for the movement. Back when I was at university, there was also Lambda Legal, Act Up, among others, but it's been the HRC that has been front and center on the marriage issue. The movement is unified, even if it does not include everyone who identifies as gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered. (In fact, the transgendered folks often get burned, since the GLB part of GLBT keeps leaving their concerns on the back burner.)



    Frank Kameny was a brave and intellectual man. He was not a saint nor was he necessarily the godfather of gay rights. The point is that he was but one of many activists of his generation (b 1925). The Mattachine Society was influential mostly by inspiring the creation of other groups. However, in regard to your point, there were several major differences in these groups, their philosophies, and objectives and membership. Some of them were driven by self-styled radicals left over from the Beatniks. They tended to be the ones who claimed "gay liberation" as an objective. Gay liberation and gay rights would come to mean quite different things. Gay liberation was typical out-there radical crap, especially since it was joined at the hip with Flower Power and Free Love and a lot of the 1960's crappola. Most gay people found these gay-liberation groups to be undesirable and dated. So you saw "equal rights" groups arise. The funny thing is that the idiocy of the "special rights" accusation would have applied to gay-liberation but it doesn't apply to anything contemporary.

    Of course the gay-liberation crowd like to take credit for the gay rights movement but they did more to harm it after any help they originally generated. These would be the "so what" and "whatever" folks who say outlandish things which the religious right scoops up and regurgitates relentlessly.

    So yes, Virginia, there was a man a long time ago who said "We don't want to be equal, we just want to be left alone." He's dead now and his followers live in a commune in the mountains of Tennessee. Seriously, they do.
    Interesting how the true radicals got left in the dust. Then again, I have my sincere suspicions about the "counter culture's" origins, but I'll leave that alone.
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