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  1. #41  
    Senior Member Apache's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    So if I say "You're full of shit" then you think it means that you are literally filled with excrement. Aspergers?
    Dial it down Princess... His logic circles yours, faster than you do, on your first date... just saying...
    Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem.
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  2. #42  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Religious values are unaffected by the policy change.
    Except when they are...which is the case with the hiring of this idiot that holds the same views on religion that you do.

    [quoteHere's what you don't seem to understand: a gay soldier is not being disrespectful to a Baptist's (or Baptistlike Jewish person's) values. He is simply a gay soldier. Your outward expression of disdain for that soldier is not your values, it's your animosity. It is animosity which is prohibited, not values.[/QUOTE]

    Once again your lack of knowledge of what really goes on daily in the military is shining through.

    Despite what you WANT to believe is going on...there isn't any daily animosity towards gay soldiers in the military. that's wishful thinking on your part.

    There also isn't some kind of cult-like wave of Religous zealotry going on trying to brainwash people into hating people who "aren't like us"...again deslite the fact that you WANT it to be that way.

    Like I said before go spout your steretypes someplace else.
    In Memory Of My Friend 1st Sgt. Tim Millsap A Co, 70th Eng. Bn. 3rd Bde 1st AD...K.I.A. 25 April 2005

    Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

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    The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.
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  3. #43  
    Moderator txradioguy's Avatar
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    No wonder Nova doesn't see anything wrong with this guy Weinstein:

    He compared the act of proselytizing to rape.

    “It is a version of being spiritually raped and you are being spiritually raped by fundamentalist Christian religious predators,”

    "Someone needs to be punished for this, until the Air Force or Army or Navy or Marine Corps punishes a member of the military for unconstitutional religious proselytizing and oppression, we will never have the ability to stop this horrible, horrendous, dehumanizing behavior.”


    Those quotes are a wet dream come true for Nova.
    In Memory Of My Friend 1st Sgt. Tim Millsap A Co, 70th Eng. Bn. 3rd Bde 1st AD...K.I.A. 25 April 2005

    Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

    To Achieve Ordered Liberty You Must Have Moral Order As Well

    The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.
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  4. #44  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    Ordinarily, this would be a First Amendment issue. The military is a very different situation, however. Is there any appeal available for chaplains?


    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    My fear is that this will extend to the civilian world. Churches that take any state money at all--such as school vouchers for poor students--may be forced into marrying gay couples.
    Of course it will. That's the intent. We are the petri dish for liberal experiments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    I've been watching him do this. Supporting a narrative is not the same thing as analyzing facts. Nova always does the former.
    Did I call it or what? Note his lack of response to the substantive points of my posts:

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    So if I say "You're full of shit" then you think it means that you are literally filled with excrement. Aspergers?
    No, but it does mean that you think that my arguments are figuratively $#/+, that is, completely without merit. As for Aspergers, it would explain your inability to answer a simple question, and your obsessive focus on a minor point of grammar instead of the major issues raised. Perhaps you only get as far as the first sentence of my posts due to the limited attention span caused by ADD. Perhaps you should wait until your Ritalin kicks in before you post. However, since you seemed to have missed these questions twice now, here they are again:

    •Given a Soldier with a history of authority issues, who violates OPSEC while in training, but still gets a clearance, and then keeps that clearance while openly flouting the gay ban, cross-dressing and exhibiting mental health issues, including a violent outburst that required physical restraint and the associated behaviors of suicidal Soldiers, what actions would you take as his commander?
    •Why do you believe that his chain of command did not act on them, if not for reasons of political correctness?

    Please make an attempt at addressing these basic questions as to Manning. Clearly, you think that my leadership skills are lacking if I do not completely embrace the lifestyles of my gay troops and advocate for the advancement, not of them as individuals, but of the lifestyle itself, so please enlighten me as to what course of action you would have taken in response to Manning's bizarre conduct. I breathlessly await your sage guidance...

    Quote Originally Posted by txradioguy View Post
    No wonder Nova doesn't see anything wrong with this guy Weinstein:

    He compared the act of proselytizing to rape.

    “It is a version of being spiritually raped and you are being spiritually raped by fundamentalist Christian religious predators,”

    "Someone needs to be punished for this, until the Air Force or Army or Navy or Marine Corps punishes a member of the military for unconstitutional religious proselytizing and oppression, we will never have the ability to stop this horrible, horrendous, dehumanizing behavior.”

    Those quotes are a wet dream come true for Nova.
    Like most ideologues, Nova cannot see past his own biases. He loathes religion, but does not see that his loathing is at least as irrational as the "superstition" that he hates. Faith is a choice. One either makes the leap, or does not. I haven't, but I also know that there are limits to what I know and what I can know, so I am agnostic. Nova chooses not to believe, which is his right, but ultimately, he can have no more certainty of the absence of God through science than he could have of the presence of God through science. One can say, with certainty, that one does not know if there is a God, or that one believes or does not believe, but not that there is. The presumption of the existence or lack of existence of intelligence behind creation is still a presumption, but to mock and ridicule those who choose belief in God when one chooses to believe in nothing is simply the pot calling the kettle black.

    BTW, to an atheist, how can one be spiritually raped, if there is no spirit to rape? If religion is superstition, then being prosletyzed simply means being exposed to a fairytale. Do we spiritually rape children with stories of the Tooth Fairy? Are vampire movies spiritual rape (modern vampire lore is based in Christianity, although vampires predate Christianity)? Is any fiction involving religious themes spiritual rape? This is just secularist hate speech.
    --Odysseus
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    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
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  5. #45  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Like most ideologues, Nova cannot see past his own biases. He loathes religion
    I do not loathe religion. Like chamber music, one could practice all day long without me ever knowing it existed. Take thee to a quiet room and practice it.
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  6. #46  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Nova chooses not to believe, which is his right, but ultimately, he can have no more certainty of the absence of God through science than he could have of the presence of God through science.
    This presumes that there is a reason to believe in a god in the first place. We have a considerable body of work showing us how, where, and when these myths have developed in human culture. There are commonalities to them. There is a science to their study. By every measure they are deemed cultural artifacts and superstitions. There is no reason to believe that any of them are true.

    Even Buddhism goes over the edge. They start out with a fairly remarkable if rudimentary understanding of physics (energy cannot be destroyed merely changing forms) but then they start embellishing it. It makes sense that your energy survives your body. It does not make sense that you are one with the world, somehow aware of it and yet your personality does not survive into the next state of being. My ego requires that my personality go on after death.
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  7. #47  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    I do not loathe religion. Like chamber music, one could practice all day long without me ever knowing it existed. Take thee to a quiet room and practice it.
    My lack of music skills was amply demonstrated through three years of painfully unproductive piano lessons. My lack of religion was addressed in my post. Now, will you answer my questions regarding Manning, or are you going to continue to tapdance around the facts that you don't want to acknowledge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    This presumes that there is a reason to believe in a god in the first place. We have a considerable body of work showing us how, where, and when these myths have developed in human culture. There are commonalities to them. There is a science to their study. By every measure they are deemed cultural artifacts and superstitions. There is no reason to believe that any of them are true.
    The specific myths of most religions are well-documented, but some are not, and the big questions, such as how did we come into being, what was the proximate cause of the creation of the universe, and why does the buttered side of the bread always land on the ground, are not addressed by that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Even Buddhism goes over the edge. They start out with a fairly remarkable if rudimentary understanding of physics (energy cannot be destroyed merely changing forms) but then they start embellishing it. It makes sense that your energy survives your body. It does not make sense that you are one with the world, somehow aware of it and yet your personality does not survive into the next state of being. My ego requires that my personality go on after death.
    So, without any empirical proof, you assert that your personality will survive your death? Why do you assume that you are so special that your particular energy pattern must remain distinct? The Buddhist argument that energy, while not destroyed, does not mean that it will not dissipate, like a drop of water in the ocean. Will your consciousness survive that? Who knows? But you believe that it will because you choose to do so, because you want it to be true, because you have chosen to have faith that it will be so. You can't even see faith when it smacks you in the nose.

    Your ego requires many things, but apparently the desire to answer a direct question that has been put to you twice is not one of them, which is understandable, as your ego would suffer from having been proven so blatantly wrong. Here it is again:

    •Given a Soldier with a history of authority issues, who violates OPSEC while in training, but still gets a clearance, and then keeps that clearance while openly flouting the gay ban, cross-dressing and exhibiting mental health issues, including a violent outburst that required physical restraint and the associated behaviors of suicidal Soldiers, what actions would you take as his commander?
    •Why do you believe that his chain of command did not act on them, if not for reasons of political correctness?
    Your inability to answer these questions embarasses you, not me.

    And, in answer to an earlier question, there are Constitutional protections for chaplains. See Katcoff V. Marsh, which establishes the applicability of the First Amendment rights to the Free Exercise of Religion to military service members.

    The second provision of the Constitution which plays a vital role in our interpretation of the Establishment Clause is the Free Exercise Clause of the same Amendment. It is readily apparent that this Clause, like the Establishment Clause, obligates Congress, upon creating an Army, to make religion available to soldiers who have been moved by the Army to areas of the world where religion of their own denominations is not available to them.
    The question as to where the line is drawn as to religious freedom vs. good order and discipline is addressed as well, with the injunction that it cannot be a rigid standard:

    The need for some flexibility in this respect had earlier been recognized in Walz v. Tax Commission, supra, where the Court stated that

    "The course of constitutional neutrality in this area cannot be an absolutely straight line; rigidity could well defeat the basic purpose of these provisions, which is to insure that no religion be sponsored or favored, none commanded, and none inhibited.... Short of those expressly proscribed governmental acts there is room for play in the joints productive of a benevolent neutrality which will permit religious exercise to exist without sponsorship and without interference." 397 U.S. at 669, 90 S.Ct. at 1411.
    The chaplains have a case.
    --Odysseus
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  8. #48  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    •Given a Soldier with a history of authority issues, who violates OPSEC while in training, but still gets a clearance, and then keeps that clearance while openly flouting the gay ban, cross-dressing and exhibiting mental health issues, including a violent outburst that required physical restraint and the associated behaviors of suicidal Soldiers, what actions would you take as his commander?
    •Why do you believe that his chain of command did not act on them, if not for reasons of political correctness?
    .
    There were 619 gay people discharged from the service for being gay in 2009. It is not reasonable to deduce that Manning not being discharged was due to his superiors fearing to start or complete that process.
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  9. #49  
    Moderator txradioguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    There were 619 gay people discharged from the service for being gay in 2009. It is not reasonable to deduce that Manning not being discharged was due to his superiors fearing to start or complete that process.
    Still can't give a direct answer to the question can you?
    In Memory Of My Friend 1st Sgt. Tim Millsap A Co, 70th Eng. Bn. 3rd Bde 1st AD...K.I.A. 25 April 2005

    Liberalism Is The Philosophy Of The Stupid

    To Achieve Ordered Liberty You Must Have Moral Order As Well

    The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.
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  10. #50  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    I do not loathe religion. Like chamber music, one could practice all day long without me ever knowing it existed. Take thee to a quiet room and practice it.
    Tell me, why is it that religious people must practice their religion behind closed doors but gay people get to flaunt their stuff in broad daylight and exclaim their sexual preference in every public forum they can think of?
    The Obama Administration: Deny. Deflect. Blame.
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