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  1. #1 Did you know how restricted abortion is in Europe? 
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    Liberals want to be like Europe until they see the truth.....then they rationalize, call people and ideas "right wing" and shut down discussion.

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    Star Member LittleBlue (3,020 posts)

    Did you know how restricted abortion is in Europe?

    Last edited Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:20 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
    My sister sent me this link. The info is from 2007, most probably haven't changed.

    I always thought Europe was much more advanced on these issues than the US. Read some of these.

    GERMANY

    Availability: On request

    Gestational limit: 12 weeks

    Conditions: The woman must receive proper counselling three days before the procedure. The state-regulated counselling is required to inform the woman that the unborn have a right to life and to try to convince her to continue her pregnancy.

    The procedure is not covered by public health insurance except for women with low income. The law includes penalties for people who force a pregnant woman to obtain an abortion or who induce a pregnant woman to have an abortion by maliciously withholding support payments.

    FRANCE

    Availability: On request

    Gestational limit: 12 weeks

    Conditions: The woman must claim to be in a "state of distress" because of her pregnancy. After 12 weeks, abortions are allowed only if the pregnancy poses a grave danger to the woman's health or there is a risk the child will suffer from a severe illness recognised as incurable. If this is the case, two doctors must confirm the risk to the health of the woman or foetus.

    A pregnant girl under the age of 16 may ask for an abortion without consulting her parents first. But she has to be accompanied by an adult of her choice.
    Conscientious objection allows professionals to decline involvement in procedures, but they must inform the patient without delay.

    ITALY

    Availability: On request

    Gestational limit: 12 weeks

    Conditions: A one-week reflection period is imposed unless the situation is one of urgency. A certificate confirming the pregnancy and the request for termination must be issued by a doctor and signed by the woman and the doctor.

    Parental authorisation is required if the woman is under 18. After 12 weeks, abortion is allowed only if the foetus has a genetic deficiency or to preserve the physical and mental health of the mother. An abortion must be performed in a public hospital or authorised private facility - if there are staff willing to perform the procedure.

    The influence of the Roman Catholic Church - and the threat of excommunication for anyone performing an abortion and any woman obtaining an abortion - means the majority of physicians and other healthcare professionals invoke a conscience clause allowing them to be exempted on moral or religious grounds.

    SWEDEN

    Availability: On request

    Gestational limit: 18 weeks

    Conditions: Between 12 and 18 weeks of gestation, the women must discuss the procedure with a social worker. After 18 weeks, permission must be obtained from the National Board of Health and Welfare.

    Abortions must be performed by a licensed medical practitioner and, except in cases of emergency, in a general hospital or other approved healthcare establishment. Abortion is subsidised by the government. The country says illegal abortions have been eradicated.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6235557.stm

    I was shocked to see a majority of western Europe seemed to think ~12 weeks is the limit. Even countries like Sweden, who are much farther to the left than the US, has a policy more restrictive than the new laws proposed by red states.

    Sources: United Nations and the International Planned Parenthood Federation.
    Puzzledtraveller (2,517 posts)
    4. I knew this and have always been surprised it was not brought up more often.
    RainDog (24,579 posts)
    5. I knew about this. They also have a social safety net

    they also have universal health care with affordable birth control and the cultures, overall, talk more about sex in the media, etc. without the shame-based attitude toward premarital sex that still exists in the U.S.

    The social safety net in northern European nations includes a payment, every month, to every parent for every child they have to help them pay for expenses related to child-rearing.

    they have preschools in all the elementary schools that are under the same regulations as K-12 schools.

    So, it's not just that they have stricter abortion laws, it's also that they have an infrastructure to try to prevent unwanted pregnancies and an infrastructure to care for children who are and aren't planned.

    that's the biggest difference, since 88-92% of all abortions happen during the first trimester, prior to the 13th week of gestation.

    The few abortions that occur for after the first trimester are most often due to issues concerning the health of the mother because Roe v. Wade includes provisions related to viability as a pregnancy progresses.
    Dawson Leery (8,532 posts)
    6. +1

    Contraception is easily available and affordable too.
    Like it isn't in the United States. /s
    liberal_at_heart (4,106 posts)
    11. it's certainly not the political football over there that it is over here. It's treated as a medical

    issue plain and simple. I do wonder what the people think of the gestation limit. It doesn't seem to raise to the same level of public outrage over there that it does here or maybe we just don't here about it. May be they are okay with it. May be they're not. I don't know.
    And like a "medical issue" the life of the fetus is considered, unlike leftists who are only concerned about wanting to do what they want without taking responsibility and then claiming abortion is a civil right or a "woman's right".
    RainDog (24,579 posts)
    13. the claim of a gestational limit is bullshit.

    as you can see in the pdf link I provided, above, that states every European nation's laws regarding abortion.

    Nearly every single one of them has the same trimester restrictions that exist in the U.S.
    RainDog (24,579 posts)
    14. iow, this is right-wing propaganda. on DU.

    that claims the red states are proposing changes to abortion laws that are less restrictive than most all European nations.
    Star Member LittleBlue (3,020 posts)
    17. Propaganda?

    Sorry, I just got this in an email with a story about Texas' new laws. I understand that their safety nets are much better than ours.

    I cannot reconcile how the new right-wing threshold of 20 weeks (based on the fetus pain claim) is more restrictive than 12. 12 seems very low and most of Europe seems to advocate 12. In places like Spain, it's 22 but abortion is not available on demand.

    I have come to learn that Europe is not as progressive as I thought, not only in this but also in race and free speech issues.
    RainDog (24,579 posts)
    20. why don't you find out if the information is correct before you post it?

    Western European nations, and Canada, have laws that are different than those in the U.S.

    My objection is to the claim that red states are proposing laws that are less restrictive than the majority of nations in Europe.

    This is a lie and serves to legitimate religious right winger's attempts to impose their beliefs on others and to coerce women into positions they do not choose for themselves.

    THIS is the problem.

    Your post isn't factual.

    It has nothing to do with race or free speech (although, honestly, if you want to look at those issues in comparision to the U.S., check out the numbers of people in prison here and in western nations, based upon the color of their skin, please, and look at the sort of political discourse that is available on tv in western Europe vs. the U.S., as well.)

    That's why I said it's propaganda. Maybe that wasn't your intent - but that's the result of posting lies.
    Star Member LittleBlue (3,020 posts)
    21. Look at this from Germany

    The woman must receive proper counselling three days before the procedure. The state-regulated counselling is required to inform the woman that the unborn have a right to life and to try to convince her to continue her pregnancy.


    Is this not accurate?

    Frankly, it looks like a southern fundy's dream.
    RainDog (24,579 posts)
    12. The claim is incorrect, basically

    Abortion in Europe is PAID FOR BY THE GOVT via their health care services.

    It doesn't matter what anyone's religious belief is regarding this reproductive health care issue - it's none of their business and women have greater access to abortion services than they do in the U.S.

    I don't know why this person is trying to claim that what red states are proposing for abortion in the U.S. is less restrictive than what's offered in Europe.

    This is a lie.
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  2. #2  
    Senior Member Dan D. Doty's Avatar
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    Maybe we should all chip in and buy RainDog a nice set of pliers ... so he can pull out that bug up his ass
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  3. #3  
    Zoomie djones520's Avatar
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    Affordable birth control... America doesn't have affordable birth control...

    Does anyone here not know how to get free condoms? Anyone? Anyone at all?
    In most sports, cold-cocking an opposing player repeatedly in the face with a series of gigantic Slovakian uppercuts would get you a multi-game suspension without pay.

    In hockey, it means you have to sit in the penalty box for five minutes.
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  4. #4  
    PORCUS MAXIMUS Rockntractor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djones520 View Post
    Affordable birth control... America doesn't have affordable birth control...

    Does anyone here not know how to get free condoms? Anyone? Anyone at all?
    If you fell asleep naked in an ally with a hard on in any city on the west coast, you would probably awaken wearing a properly fitted condom.
    The difference between pigs and people is that when they tell you you're cured it isn't a good thing.
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  5. #5  
    Senior Member DumbAss Tanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockntractor View Post
    If you fell asleep naked in an ally with a hard on in any city on the west coast, you would probably awaken wearing a properly fitted condom.

    Or with a homo on your lap.
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  6. #6  
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    They bring up social safety nets and affordable contraception and universal healthcare, as if that's ever been a part of their argument. Their position is that it's a woman's right to choose. Period. Why would they be OK with a social safety net replacing a woman's right to choose?
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  7. #7  
    Power CUer noonwitch's Avatar
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    Canada has some limits beyond US law, too, but I'm not sure of all of them. I think the hospitals have committees that have to approve each procedure-it's basically a rubber stamp in Ontario, but I would guess that it could get trickier in Quebec. I think abortion is covered by their national health care plan, though, but I'm not sure. I read about it a while ago, and they may have either made their laws more liberal or more stringent since then. It's Canada, after all.


    II think abortion is still completely illegal in Ireland, and that women seeking abortions have to pretty much go to England to get one.
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