Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst ... 345
Results 41 to 45 of 45
  1. #41  
    Power CUer NJCardFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    15,869
    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    It's what we're talking about NJ.
    No, you're throwing out a hypothetical whereas this is an actual. You cannot put a hypothetical and an actual side by side and call it a common frame of reference. At least in the real world where I live.
    The Obama Administration: Deny. Deflect. Blame.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2. #42  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    8,932
    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Unless they had a sign that says "We don't serve gay people." then there is no reason to assume that they don't.
    But if they had signs of their Christian orientation, their world view could be surmised as a potential challenge to a gay wedding. So if two lesbians walk into a shop and they see the ichthys (Jesus fish) or scripture on the wall, they have a better than 50/50 chance of conjuring up a lawsuit just by asking for a cake.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  3. #43  
    Politically tired. Lanie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    4,255
    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    It is typical for small proprietorships to be open Saturday and closed Sunday and Monday. Neither that nor Bible passages is necessarily evidence of their intention to discriminate. I live in a small town full of Quakers, UCC, and all manner of Christo-Hippies who don't discriminate.
    Okay, I could see Quakers doing a gay wedding cake easily. UCC (Universalist?). Them too. What are Christo-Hippies? Are those liberals too? No big deal.

    But if we're talking about people who truly have religious convictions against it, then I think people need to back off. People fought for gay rights with the promise that it wouldn't be forced upon others in any way.

    Same thing for if a bakery didn't want to do a cake for a couple on their second marriage or a couple who was "unequally yoked." And why would you want certain people making your cake, anyway? If I was part of a group of people that the business didn't want to do business, then I wouldn't want to do business with them. You just got through saying that you live in a town full of people who would do business with you. Why not do business with them?

    I live in a town where a doctor's office turned somebody away for service because they dressed up as the opposite gender. He had a thyroid problem which could have endangered his health, but these "Christians" turned him away. Well, he got a doctor with the office up the street. And then it's rumored that a person got fired for being gay at the Burger King years ago. One uphill battle I've been fighting the past year is the concept that the guaaaaays are going to force their way into our lives, teach it to our children, and cause people to marry/screw animals. This is already an uphill battle where I live without having to explain some people threatening some bakers.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #44  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    8,932
    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    If you are going to discriminate, it should be in writing.
    Most merchants don't use their religion as an excuse to act unprofessionally.
    It isn't quite discrimination.

    It's not as if two lesbians walked in to get a birthday cake. Unless the bakery is run by Jehova Witnesses, it would certainly have supplied a birthday cake.

    The owners were practicing their faith by turning down a cake for a ceremony in which they did not believe in the same way that the photographers were practicing their faith by turning down the opportunity to photograph a gay wedding. Those photographers may have photographed gay individuals and they might have even photographed a gay birthday party or two. Neither business refused to serve gay people strictly because they were gay. THAT would be discrimination.

    But choosing not to make a cake or take photographs because the ceremony involved is against your moral principles is NOT discrimination. It is the free exercise of religion.

    Theologically, making money photographing a ceremony that is against God's law is ill gotten gains. (Where your treasure is, your heart shall be.) Your time and energy should not be going towards supporting an institution you think is evil.

    Let's take it one step further:

    Suppose, for example, that some devil-worshiping cult wanted a photographer to take pictures of a black mass. Should these Christians be required by law to take these photos or else be sued? To a Christian, this is imperiling your very soul. Forcing Christians to do actions that go against everything they believe in or else be sued is denying them (and ultimately everyone else) their First Amendment rights.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #45  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    FT Belvoir, VA
    Posts
    15,638
    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Originally Posted by OdysseusBut they don't object to serving gay people, at least not as customers. They object to making a cake
    They make cakes. That's what their customers purchase from them. None of which really matters since the action being taken against them is just as legal as their refusal of service ought to be.
    Wow. "They object to making a cake that makes a mockery of marriage. " You omitted the bold part, fundamentally distorting the original meaning. That kind of selective editing is what made NBC a pariah during the Zimmerman trial. It's dishonest and transparent. They didn't object to making a cake, they objected to making a cake whose purpose was to celebrate something that they found objectionable. And, threats of violence are not legal, and that is what is happening here. The bakery closed because the violent threats from gay activists have made it dangerous for the proprietors to do their jobs. There is nothing legal about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Sure there is. They turned away pay business to express their own personal prejudices. Tell me that a Realtor who refuses to show property in Chevy Chase to Jews wouldn't be considered unprofessional (these days).
    Whether or not it's unprofessional, I can always get another realtor. I don't have to sue that one in order to buy a property. If the owner wants to sell to me, but the realtor doesn't, I can always bypass the realtor and make the offer to the owner, in which case the realtor suffers the loss of the commission.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    As I said before, I support their right to freedom of association. It is, however, unprofessional and socially unacceptable.
    So, you give lip service to their right, but will punish them for violating the latest fad. Not exactly the ringing endorsement of freedom that one would hope to get.

    Several years ago, an illustration rep approached me to do a piece for PETA. I could've really used the money, but I talked it over with Mrs. O, and I turned down the commission. Now, by your logic, PETA should have been able to harrass and attack me until I knuckled under and did their bidding, or until I was out of business. This is the problem with your position. It embraces mob rule, so long as it's your mob making the rules. Using social conventions as the arbiter of right and wrong can backfire badly on you, since only a few years ago, it was socially unacceptable to even be closeted. The pendulum swings both ways, and a decade from now, you could find yourself on the other side of society's tolerance line, and the rights that you have denied to others today will be rights that you will have no claim on then.
    --Odysseus
    Sic Hacer Pace, Para Bellum.

    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •