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09-12-2013, 08:42 PM
I thought the topic was making the SNAP dollars go to healthier choices. A family of four gets about $125 per week. Sitting here just now I did a shopping list for a family of four for one week and came up with $114.Originally Posted by Adam Wood
PB
Jelly
bread
margarine
celery
apples
tomatoes
grapes
pineapple
jello
yogurt
oatmeal
sugar
flour
rice
tuna
mayo
chicken
hot dogs
beans
froz fries
limas
mustard
7 bags froz veg
bananas
oj
milk
cereal
09-12-2013, 11:07 PM
The greater goal is to cut waste in SNAP, to separate the needy from the greedy. Healthy choices are one way to do that. No matter how few people are willing to admit it, people will stop using SNAP when they can't get a gravy train of junk food out of it. Ultimately, my goal (and I suspect Roe's, but I wouldn't make that an affirmative statement) is to make being poor suck again. A lot fewer people would be on food stamps if that meant that life really sucked for them.
Yes, that sounds really harsh. Sorry. Get over it, those of you who have gotten bent out of shape over the notion that it would do a societal good to make being poor suck. The simple, undeniable reality is that if it really sucks to be on food stamps, if it is embarrassing and demeaning, if you will do pretty much anything to not have to deal with crappy, monotonous, bland food choices, the embarrassment, and the shame of being on food stamps, then you will do something to change that, like get off your ass and go get a fucking JOB! People will flee from food stamps and other such government assistance so long as it sucks bad enough to be on them.
No, that's not happy or fun. But it most definitely is motivation to get people to stop resting in what was a safety net, but is now a safety hammock (h/t Boog).
I'll take your word for it on the dollar amount. The one I hear batted around most is $134/month, which is for a single person getting the maximum benefit, and then that is somehow transmuted into their entire grocery bill. Here's a big hint: the "S" in SNAP stands for "supplemental;" SNAP was never intended to pay for all or even most of someone's food needs. It was always meant to fill in the gaps. That's why I would prefer to see SNAP go away and instead tell people that if they go on food stamps, that is their only source of food, but that's just me and my larger plan for world domination.
I would knock out jello and yogurt immediately, as well as frozen fries. I don't see volumes involved here, so I may well be inclined to knock out some other things. Seven bags of frozen vegetables seems an awful lot, but again I don't know how big these bags are.
09-12-2013, 11:15 PM
I was shopping for a family of four in my scenario. I got the benefit amount from some website. The prices I used are from memory and even now I would add a couple of dozen eggs and some cornbread to the list. You'll note that there is very little meat. The frozen fries are actually cheaper than raw potatoes and kids like them. Kids are kids. Seven two pound bags of frozen vegetables mixed with rice is a lot of good food for a cheap price. If the Chinese can live on it, our poor can too.
The Simpsons I'm with Cupid
00:05:47 - What's in it? - Chickpeas, lentils and rice.
Time - Phrase
00:05:38 Good rice, good curry, good Gandhi, let's hurry.
00:05:44 Mmm! This is delicious.
00:05:47 - What's in it? - Chickpeas, lentils and rice.
00:05:49 - And what's in this? - Chickpeas and lentils.
00:05:51 - Try it with rice. - I'm so glad we were able to get together.
09-12-2013, 11:15 PM
If SNAP is only meant to be supplemental (for those who don't have enough), then it doesn't seem right to say that's all they can eat. I think we can make being poor suck without making them go hungry with a rule like that. I think getting a lot stricter in what can be purchased would help out in making people get prideful/pissed off enough to want to get off of SNAP.
09-12-2013, 11:21 PM
You get stuck between channels sometimes , don't you?
09-13-2013, 09:12 AM
Apparently I'm typing in some special invisible typeface again.
09-13-2013, 10:18 AM
Her tuner is always just a little bit off from being on the right station, lot's of static.
09-13-2013, 12:02 PM
WIC wasn't much better in terms of fraud, though. The NY Post discovered a bunch of bodegas that would by WIC coupons for 50 cents on the dollar and then turn them in for the full value. The stores were empty, at least in terms of food, but drugs were readily available, if not on the premises, then nearby. Today, the cards are worked the same way, with fake purchases rung up in exchange for cash. A recent expose (again, by the Post), shows how the scam works and identified a number of stores where it was common.
The program is rife with fraud, waste and abuse. It should be shut down.
There is considerable support for a lot of wrong ideas. It doesn't make them valid.
Obesity is caused by, in most cases, over-indulgence in food and lack of exercise, and it is epidemic among the poor. Supplementing food purchases for overweight people is like corporate welfare for fatcats, except that in this case, the fat is literal, rather than a metaphor.
Sorry, but the list sounded elitist to me. Generally, when someone talks about banning something that does them no harm, my social engineering filter goes into overdrive. I apologize. However, you must admit that there is a certain amount of prejudice against certain foods among elite opinion makers (note Bloomberg's soda bans). Regardless, my point is that banning certain purchases will not only not prevent them from being made, but given the nature of SNAP fraud, won't even make a dent in the scope of the programs. People are making straw purchases for cash in order to buy drugs or alcohol. Do you really believe that banning products with corn syrup is going to make any difference?
Being poor sucks already, but again, the issue is not whether we should ban certain food items on a list, but whether the program should exist at all. Federal welfare programs are the worst administered in terms of fraud, waste and abuse, because the end recipients are too far away from the people who administer the program. Welfare needs to be a local/county issue, where people are known by their friends and neighbors, and con jobs and fraud are more likely to be found out before massive appropriations are made. If you want to help people, the worst thing that you can do is launch money bombs at them from across the country. Let their communities work with them and the help that they receive will be tailored to them by people who know and care for them, rather by faceless bureaucrats.
09-13-2013, 01:54 PM
Surely the same can be said about the military, but we don't shut it down. I'm not trying to get under your skin, but you and I know that any program, government or private, is going to have some waste or fraud. While I think we can agree that the military is more essential than SNAP, you can't simply say that where there is fraud, waste, and abuse there is no success or redeeming quality.
I think that there is considerable reason to believe that some foods are worse than others. High Fructose Corn Syrup is suspect for a host of problems. I find it interesting that my grand parents ate a ton of sugar and starchy stuff and never carried more than 10 pounds of excess weight. Now we have an entire generation of people fighting their weight. HFCS was invented in 1957 and ubiquitous by 1975.
09-13-2013, 03:00 PM
Actually, in the case of SNAP, I can simply say it, because it is true. The military's fraud, waste and abuse is minute in comparison, and since I've been in, I've come to understand the many layers of controls that we have in place to try to prevent it. OTOH, SNAP and its predecessors were known for the lack of oversight and fraud mitigation. The very basis of the system encourages the abuses. In the previous NY Post series on WIC fraud in NYC, they determined that fully one-quarter of the grocery stores in Manhattan were fronts for the abuses cited. In another recent expose, the Post found that The program resists reform because the basic premise is flawed. Giving money directly to people who haven't earned it (or giving them vouchers that can be redeemed for cash or debit cards that can do cash advances) guarantees that the money will be spent without any oversight. A few examples:
NY Food Stamp Recipients Shipping Welfare-Funded Groceries to Jamaica, Dominican Republic and HaitiHere's how the economics of the scam work:
Posted 07/29/2013
New York Post -
Food stamps are paying for trans-Atlantic takeout — with New Yorkers using taxpayer-funded benefits to ship food to relatives in Jamaica, Haiti and the Dominican Republic.
Welfare recipients are buying groceries with their Electronic Benefit Transfer (EBT) cards and packing them in giant barrels for the trip overseas, The Post found.
The practice is so common that hundreds of 45- to 55-gallon cardboard and plastic barrels line the walls of supermarkets in almost every Caribbean corner of the city.
The feds say the moveable feasts go against the intent of the $86 billion welfare program for impoverished Americans.
NYC welfare food is shipped in barrels to the Dominican Republic – then sold on the black market
By Isabel Vincent
July 28, 2013 | 4:00am
Photo: Food-stamp fraud in New York has turned into foreign aid — to black-market profiteers in the Dominican Republic.
Last week, The Post revealed how New Yorkers on welfare are buying food with their benefit cards and shipping it in blue barrels to poor relatives in the Caribbean.
But not everyone is giving the taxpayer-funded fare to starving children abroad. The Post last week found two people hawking barrels of American products for a profit on the streets of Santiago.
“It’s a really easy way to make money, and it doesn’t cost me anything,” a seller named Maria-Teresa said Friday.
The 47-year-old Bronx native told The Post she scalps barrels of Frosted Flakes and baby formula bought with welfare money in the United States.
Maria-Teresa said she gets new barrels every few weeks from her sister, who buys everything at a Western Beef on Prospect Avenue near East 165th Street in Foxhurst.
The scamming sibling pays $75 per barrel to transport the items to the DR through Mott Haven’s Luciano Shipping. Sometimes the family fraudsters take advantage of a special: three barrels for the price of two.
Maria-Teresa said she uses some of the products but vends the rest out of her Santiago home, providing markdowns of $1 to $2 compared to what her buyers would pay in local shops.
“I don’t know how much of a business it is, but I know a lot of people are doing it,” she said.
So, what you have is a case of people using the money that they get from the government to buy food that they obviously don't need and reselling it, and since the food was free to them in the first place, anything that they make is a profit, which can be spent on anything else. That's one kind of fraud. Here's another:
Brooklyn bodega clerk is slashed in the face after telling thug he couldn't use food stamps to buy beer
Maniac tells Mutahar Murshed Ali 'don't make me mad,' then slices Yemen man at Bushwick deli. 'His face almost fell off,' says witness.
By Natalie Musumeci,rocco Parascandolaand Rich Schapiro / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Friday, August 17, 2012, 2:00 AM
Aaron Showalter for New York Daily News
A knife-wielding maniac slashed Mutahar Murshed Ali at Express Deli at Broadway and Gates in Bushwick, Brooklyn, when the clerk refused to sell thug beer.
A drunken man viciously carved up a Brooklyn bodega clerk’s face Thursday after being told he couldn’t use food stamps to buy a $1.25 bottle of beer.
“Sell it to me,” the suspect barked at Mutahar Murshed Ali, 34, in the Express Deli in Bushwick about 7:35 a.m. “Don’t get me mad.”
Ali told the Daily News he held his ground, telling the enraged drunk he couldn’t buy the 22-ounce Colt 45 with a food stamp card. The suspect hurled a racial slur and then stormed out of the store, Ali said.
Minutes later, the man returned, dove across the counter and sliced open Ali’s face — opening up a gash from his upper lip to his left sideburn.
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...#ixzz2engpvXfd
In this case, you have a perp using violence to force a store owner to sell contraband. Most stores don't need the threat, they simply sell what the perp wants, and mark it up as something else. Beer can be sold as bottled water, just by using a different bar code. Ring up enough, and you've covered the cost and made a nice markup, since the perp isn't paying his own money, he doesn't care. And that doesn't include the fake purchases made from empty bodegas people rack up hundreds of dollars at a time in bogus sales. Of course, there are other ways to get money from the cards:
Welfare recipients take out cash at strip clubs, liquor stores and X-rated shops
By Kate Briquelet
January 6, 2013 | 5:00am
Modal Trigger
Photo: They’re on the dole — and watching the pole.
Welfare recipients took out cash at bars, liquor stores, X-rated video shops, hookah parlors and even strip clubs — where they presumably spent their taxpayer money on lap dances rather than diapers, a Post investigation found.
A database of 200 million Electronic Benefit Transfer records from January 2011 to July 2012, obtained by The Post through a Freedom of Information request, showed welfare recipients using their EBT cards to make dozens of cash withdrawals at ATMs inside Hank’s Saloon in Brooklyn; the Blue Door Video porn shop in the East Village; The Anchor, a sleek SoHo lounge; the Patriot Saloon in TriBeCa; and Drinks Galore, a liquor distributor in The Bronx.
The fraud in these systems is pervasive, and unlike the armed forces, serves no purpose. They need to go.
There are lots of valid reasons to believe that some foods are unhealthier than others. However, there is no valid reason that we should be forced to pay for the food consumption of people who are capable of working but choose not to.
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