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  1. #11  
    Politically tired. Lanie's Avatar
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    Can't you be a socialist without being Lenin's idiot or a Stalinist? There are middle grounds. That's not to say they're economically right, but I would think that it's not the same as these revolutionies you speak of.
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  2. #12  
    Senior Member Arroyo_Doble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Yes, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, they were such great humanitarians. The delusion of leftists that communism is about feeding the poor and helping people continues to amaze me, given the sheer weight of the evidence to the contrary. In this case, the nuns were Lenin's useful idiots, lending the sanctity of their position to a monstrous system. Can you really blame people for opposing that?
    The delusion of the (so-called) right that feeding the poor and helping people get medical care is the same as totalitarian Marxism given the shear weight of evidence to the contrary (never mind the concept of doing such things pre-dates the birth of Karl Marx by a few millennia or so) continues to amaze me. I should tell my priest we need to stop all that commie stuff our church engages in.
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  3. #13  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    Can't you be a socialist without being Lenin's idiot or a Stalinist? There are middle grounds. That's not to say they're economically right, but I would think that it's not the same as these revolutionies you speak of.
    Not anymore, sadly. One of the things that keeps cropping up in discussions about socialism is that the people who call themselves socialists, progressives, Marxists, communists or liberals can no longer distinguish what sets them apart from each other. Consequently, when a socialist goes to a place where a Marxist revolution is preparing to impose its totalitarian system, they end up doing the bidding of the Marxists, and the people who are fighting them don't make the distinction between the various shades of red.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arroyo_Doble View Post
    The delusion of the (so-called) right that feeding the poor and helping people get medical care is the same as totalitarian Marxism given the shear weight of evidence to the contrary (never mind the concept of doing such things pre-dates the birth of Karl Marx by a few millennia or so) continues to amaze me. I should tell my priest we need to stop all that commie stuff our church engages in.
    Feeding the poor and helping people to get medical care isn't the same as totalitarian Marxism. In fact, famine and medical shortages are the hallmarks of Marxist states. If you want to feed people and provide health care, leave it to free men and women, not bureaucrats. Leftists continue to pretend that their policies benefit the poor, but unlike JFK, who believed that a rising (capitalist) tide lifts all boats, the leftist seeks universal poverty by scuttling all boats, so that they sink in equality.
    --Odysseus
    Sic Hacer Pace, Para Bellum.

    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
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  4. #14  
    Politically tired. Lanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Not anymore, sadly. One of the things that keeps cropping up in discussions about socialism is that the people who call themselves socialists, progressives, Marxists, communists or liberals can no longer distinguish what sets them apart from each other. Consequently, when a socialist goes to a place where a Marxist revolution is preparing to impose its totalitarian system, they end up doing the bidding of the Marxists, and the people who are fighting them don't make the distinction between the various shades of red.
    I always figure that the difference is that social Democrats (like in Europe) don't believe in achieving their goals through violent means. They're also still for free markets, but they're considered a socialist over here.



    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Feeding the poor and helping people to get medical care isn't the same as totalitarian Marxism. In fact, famine and medical shortages are the hallmarks of Marxist states. If you want to feed people and provide health care, leave it to free men and women, not bureaucrats. Leftists continue to pretend that their policies benefit the poor, but unlike JFK, who believed that a rising (capitalist) tide lifts all boats, the leftist seeks universal poverty by scuttling all boats, so that they sink in equality.
    If only we could trust the free market after the mess we've been in regarding healthcare and some other issues. I want a free market, but the idea of a totally free market scares me because I can't help but think they'll abuse their power. Why can't there be a middle ground?
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  5. #15  
    Senior Ape Articulate_Ape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Usually, communists and Muslims.

    Sic hacer pace, para bellum.
    Sent from my android.
    Eerie. That's exactly what I was gonna say. Get out of my head, Ody!
    "Our president delivered his State of the Union message to Congress. That is one of the things his contract calls for -- to tell congress the condition of the country. This message, as I say, is to Congress. The rest of the people know the condition of the country, for they live in it, but Congress has no idea what is going on in America, so the president has to tell 'em." ~ Will Rogers
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  6. #16  
    Senior Member DumbAss Tanker's Avatar
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    SAO PAULO (Reuters) - A rancher in Brazil's Amazon was sentenced to 30 years in prison for ordering the 2005 killing of American nun and environmental activist Dorothy Stang, an emblematic case for the many conflicts over land use in Brazil's resource-rich interior.
    It was the "Activist" part of that that got her killed, not the "Nun" part. For the reality-challenged, this may be a news flash, but the rest of the world isn't America, and if you travel out in it and start acting like you're in Berzerkely - or at a TEA Party rally for that matter - there is a pretty high chance of some very unpleasant and very real personal consequences, no matter what NGO or flag you travel under, let alone doing it without any cloak of secular or spiritual protection.
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  7. #17  
    Politically tired. Lanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DumbAss Tanker View Post
    It was the "Activist" part of that that got her killed, not the "Nun" part. For the reality-challenged, this may be a news flash, but the rest of the world isn't America, and if you travel out in it and start acting like you're in Berzerkely - or at a TEA Party rally for that matter - there is a pretty high chance of some very unpleasant and very real personal consequences, no matter what NGO or flag you travel under, let alone doing it without any cloak of secular or spiritual protection.

    I do think her activism is what got her killed, but it was still uncalled for. I do understand the reality of standing up for anything in South America. Stand up for anything and you may end up dead. I guess to me this just went to the "How low can you go" category.
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  8. #18  
    Sin City Moderator RobJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arroyo_Doble View Post
    The delusion of the (so-called) right that feeding the poor and helping people get medical care is the same as totalitarian Marxism given the shear weight of evidence to the contrary (never mind the concept of doing such things pre-dates the birth of Karl Marx by a few millennia or so) continues to amaze me. I should tell my priest we need to stop all that commie stuff our church engages in.
    There is a difference between charity, such as a church provides and taxpayer funded benefits.
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  9. #19  
    Sin City Moderator RobJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    I do think her activism is what got her killed, but it was still uncalled for. I do understand the reality of standing up for anything in South America. Stand up for anything and you may end up dead. I guess to me this just went to the "How low can you go" category.
    We are lucky to live in a land full of freedoms. That is why some of us get a little excited when we see some of those freedoms attacked or an attempt to take them away.


    I agree killing a nun is bad. But look at all the nations that allow Christians to be killed just because they are Christians.
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  10. #20  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    I do think her activism is what got her killed, but it was still uncalled for. I do understand the reality of standing up for anything in South America. Stand up for anything and you may end up dead. I guess to me this just went to the "How low can you go" category.
    One of the points that I was trying to make is that when nuns are murdered just for being nuns, it's invariably at the hands of those who hate Christianity, such as Muslims or communists. When it happens in a place like this, it's because they are involved in politics, and politics in most of the world is a blood sport.
    Quote Originally Posted by RobJohnson View Post
    There is a difference between charity, such as a church provides and taxpayer funded benefits.
    Not to a leftist. To them, forcing others to do what they consider to be good is better than doing good themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by RobJohnson View Post
    We are lucky to live in a land full of freedoms. That is why some of us get a little excited when we see some of those freedoms attacked or an attempt to take them away.


    I agree killing a nun is bad. But look at all the nations that allow Christians to be killed just because they are Christians.
    Exactly. For Lanie, this was an appalling act against a servant of God. For Arroyo, it wasb a chance to score cheap points. For the rest of us, it's a cautionary tale.

    Sic hacer pace, para bellum.
    Sent from my android.
    --Odysseus
    Sic Hacer Pace, Para Bellum.

    Before you can do things for people, you must be the kind of man who can get things done. But to get things done, you must love the doing, not the people!
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