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  1. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonwitch View Post
    Good response.
    No. It wasn't. It made no logical sense as a response.

    If Matthew Shepard had been a gay activist and was found later to be a meth user as well, then you might have a logical point.

    But Matthew Shepard was a nothing but a meth dealer. He was not an activist, not an innocent victim, and certainly not a victim of the straight community. His killer was a bisexual man who spent lots of time in gay bars. Shepard was a victim of his own community and his own drug dealing.


    Incidentally, MLK was not perfect and there have been many attacks on him, some justified (he cheated on his wife).

    I saw somebody post somewhere a thing about how Rosa Parks was involved in a civil rights group prior to the bus incident that led to her arrest, as if that somehow taints her story of being too tired after working all day to give up her bus seat to some crackers.

    Nothing new about any of this. Rosa Parks was a local leader of the NAACP in Alabama. Her taking the seat at the front of the bus was a calculated act; the NAACP had been looking for a way to make a stand on the bus issue.

    The American public may not have known that Parks was an activist, but the rest of the situation was genuine: Parks WAS black, she lived in a state that DID discriminate on public buses (and everywhere else), and she DID take a real risk in taking a seat where she did. All that was real.

    Matthew Shepard's story, on the other hand, is a compete fake from beginning to end. He was not killed for being gay, but as a result of the drug trade he was in. He was not killed by a paranoid straight homophobe but by a drug-addicted bisexual partner looking for a fix. The anti-gay defense of the killer could have been dissolved completely if his bisexuality, frequenting of gay bars, and his sexual background with Shepard had been brought to light.

    There was NOTHING genuine about the Matthew Shepard case. There is no way to even compare a cheap, small-time meth dealer who had sex with his male customers to Rosa Parks or MLK.
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  2. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    No. It wasn't. It made no logical sense as a response.

    If Matthew Shepard had been a gay activist and was found later to be a meth user as well
    I can't tell whether this allegation thrills you or disappoints you. It doesn't matter. You have made it quite clear over time that you enjoy scouring the internet, or going to some central depot, for things which you and only you and the trash you seek out think damn the gay community.

    Precedents are about principles, something you clearly don't value.
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  3. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Precedents are about principles, something you clearly don't value.
    It is precisely because precedents are about principles that the Matthew Shepard fraud is a travesty.
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  4. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    It is precisely because precedents are about principles that the Matthew Shepard fraud is a travesty.
    Feel free to bring any facts established at trial and we'll discuss them. Right now, you're hanging out with the Trayvon Martin bunch, willing to believe anything which confirms your biases.
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  5. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Feel free to bring any facts established at trial and we'll discuss them.
    Trials often hide a great deal. You do remember that there was a one-year gag order during the Shepard trial, so that actual facts could not make their way to the media.

    The book on which the current facts are based, The Book of Matt, is the result of a decade of investigation and interviews with the principals involved. Stephen Jiminez, the author, is a gay man, an award-winning journalist, who went to Wyoming to write a screenplay about Shepard, only to be confronted with a complete fabrication and media lie.

    Jiminez has been interviewed by HuffPo and his book has been reviewed in The Advocate.

    The challenges to the Matthew Shepard fantasy-myth have come from within your own community, and I applaud that because if a straight person had written the book, it would surely have been deemed "homophobic."

    You can stand on ceremony, Nova, and yell all sorts of invective at me, but it doesn't change the fact that a gay journalist who wanted to write a screenplay on Matthew Shepard ended up finding there was no "Matthew Shepard-gay martyr" but just a meth dealer killed by a customer/lover who was, himself, bisexual.
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  6. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    I can't tell whether this allegation thrills you or disappoints you. It doesn't matter. You have made it quite clear over time that you enjoy scouring the internet, or going to some central depot, for things which you and only you and the trash you seek out think damn the gay community.

    Precedents are about principles, something you clearly don't value.
    Give up twinkle toes you are losing on all levels, but I have to give it to you you don't know when to quit while you are behind.
    We're from Philadelphia, We Fight- Chip Kelly
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  7. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    Trials often hide a great deal. You do remember that there was a one-year gag order during the Shepard trial, so that actual facts could not make their way to the media.

    The book on which the current facts are based, The Book of Matt, is the result of a decade of investigation and interviews with the principals involved. Stephen Jiminez, the author, is a gay man, an award-winning journalist, who went to Wyoming to write a screenplay about Shepard, only to be confronted with a complete fabrication and media lie.

    Jiminez has been interviewed by HuffPo and his book has been reviewed in The Advocate.

    The challenges to the Matthew Shepard fantasy-myth have come from within your own community, and I applaud that because if a straight person had written the book, it would surely have been deemed "homophobic."

    You can stand on ceremony, Nova, and yell all sorts of invective at me, but it doesn't change the fact that a gay journalist who wanted to write a screenplay on Matthew Shepard ended up finding there was no "Matthew Shepard-gay martyr" but just a meth dealer killed by a customer/lover who was, himself, bisexual.

    If Matthew Shepard wasn't a saint it has no bearing on the larger issues. If Rosa Parks was having an affair with MLK and being followed by a limousine it doesn't change the reason for the bus boycott.

    The reason the right wing is jumping on this is because the religious right steadfastly refuses to acknowledge the role of their religion and churches in the violence against gay people.
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  8. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    If Matthew Shepard wasn't a saint it has no bearing on the larger issues.
    Nova, one more time with the logic:

    1. Matthew Shepard was sold to the American public as a gay victim of a heterosexual hate crime/murder. This characterization was used the quickly further a gay rights agenda.

    2. Matthew Shepard was not a victim of a straight man.

    3. Matthew Shepard was gay, his murderer was bisexual, and the murder was fueled by meth addiction and the drug trade.

    4. The journalist who discovered all this was gay.

    5. Straight people had nothing to do with any of this. Yet, straights were told that a gay meth dealer murdered within the GLTB community for non-sexual reasons was the fault of straight "homophobia" which had to be eradicated by new laws.

    Face it, Nova, the whole story is an GLBT-internal problem. It had nothing to do with straights or the law or "homophobia". It was a "family problem" so to speak. And like other communities with internal problems, the GLBT community didn't take responsibility but blamed the "evil" straight community, thereby perpetrating a fraud. As a result, they rushed through an agenda with which many Americans would take issue.

    That's the problem.

    Those "larger issues" need sober discussion and that takes time. By creating a completely FALSE narrative and flooding the airwaves with emotion about something that had not happened, the GLBT activists got to push and expand their idea of "homophobia" so that even suggesting a sober discussion becomes a sign of "homophobia."

    That's why the real facts about Shepard need to be brought to light.
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  9. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    No. It wasn't. It made no logical sense as a response.

    If Matthew Shepard had been a gay activist and was found later to be a meth user as well, then you might have a logical point.

    But Matthew Shepard was a nothing but a meth dealer. He was not an activist, not an innocent victim, and certainly not a victim of the straight community. His killer was a bisexual man who spent lots of time in gay bars. Shepard was a victim of his own community and his own drug dealing.





    Nothing new about any of this. Rosa Parks was a local leader of the NAACP in Alabama. Her taking the seat at the front of the bus was a calculated act; the NAACP had been looking for a way to make a stand on the bus issue.

    The American public may not have known that Parks was an activist, but the rest of the situation was genuine: Parks WAS black, she lived in a state that DID discriminate on public buses (and everywhere else), and she DID take a real risk in taking a seat where she did. All that was real.

    Matthew Shepard's story, on the other hand, is a compete fake from beginning to end. He was not killed for being gay, but as a result of the drug trade he was in. He was not killed by a paranoid straight homophobe but by a drug-addicted bisexual partner looking for a fix. The anti-gay defense of the killer could have been dissolved completely if his bisexuality, frequenting of gay bars, and his sexual background with Shepard had been brought to light.

    There was NOTHING genuine about the Matthew Shepard case. There is no way to even compare a cheap, small-time meth dealer who had sex with his male customers to Rosa Parks or MLK.

    Nova was right about the defendant in the Matthew Shepard case using the gay panic defense-even if they were all a bunch of drug addicts, the defendant stated he killed him because Matthew made homosexual advances to him. It helped him avoid the death penalty.

    Then Fred Phelps and his wacky cult family showed up for the funeral and the story started changing.

    Murder is murder in my book. If the defendant's claims were true, and he killed Matthew out of panic because Matthew expressed homosexual desires in his direction, does that mean the defendant had the right to kill him? I know what some here would say, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't say that.

    If the article is right and the whole thing was due to a drug deal gone wrong, then isn't the defendant still guilty of murder? He thought he could get sympathy for the homosexual panic claim and he did-he's still alive and not on death row.
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  10. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    Nova, one more time with the logic:

    1. Matthew Shepard was sold to the American public as a gay victim of a heterosexual hate crime/murder. This characterization was used the quickly further a gay rights agenda.
    Matthew Shepard was a poster boy for hate-crimes legislation. He was also a poster boy because the judge refuse to allow a gay-panic defense.

    Honestly Elspeth, your position seems to be that if the March Of Dimes had an ad with a kid who didn't actually have polio, then polio clearly doesn't exist, never existed, and wasn't worth worrying about.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post

    2. Matthew Shepard was not a victim of a straight man.
    Show me where the defendant identifies as gay, I missed that. It's not relevant, but you state it with such certainty that I would like to see it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    4. The journalist who discovered all this was gay. .

    How much money would he make from a book that wasn't sensational?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    5. Straight people had nothing to do with any of this. Yet, straights were told that a gay meth dealer murdered within the GLTB community for non-sexual reasons was the fault of straight "homophobia" which had to be eradicated by new laws.
    You said "one more time with logic". You clearly have no concept of logic. Even if absolutely everything about the Matthew Shepard murder was a lie, up to and including the fact that Matthew Shepard actually is alive and owns a Baskin Robbins franchise in Portland, it doesn't change the reason for gay activism regarding attacks on gay people. Are you blind, stupid, or legitimately ignorant on this subject? Matthew Shepard was not the body of the problem, he was presented as the picture of it. If he's not what he appeared to be, it doesn't mean that anti-gay hate crime is made up.

    What you cannot and will not admit to is that in this country violence and discrimination against gay people is fomented by Christianity and certain churches and religious political groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    4. The journalist who discovered all this was gay.
    For all you know he's a serial killer who moonlights as a clown. All you care about is that you ignorantly believe that his book somehow justifies your stupidity.
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