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  1. #31  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Incorrect. The hate crimes laws and cultural responses were already in motion and would have found another vehicle in the absence of Mathew Shepard. If you want a damning truth, it's about our society in general that it takes a wispy blond boyish man being killed by a WHITE man to get people upset and start changing minds. As long as America could convince themselves that the victims were street hustlers or park lurking perverts then they could blame the victims for being attacked. The simple truth is that anti-gay violence has continued unabated since Matthew Shepard, so his place in the picture really isn't more than symbolic.
    The simple truth is that Matthew Shepard wasn't killed because he was gay, his death was a result of intra-gay violence over a bad meth deal. My understanding is that this type of crime hasn't abated, either. But, you've tipped your hand again. As you pointed out, there were other crimes against gay men that didn't provoke the kind of response that you needed in order to create the climate to address your issues. You needed a body. It helped if the body was someone photogenic, who could be every mother's son, and who would elicit sympathy, but when the facts undermined the narrative, then the facts had to be suppressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Long before Matthew Shepard, Trev Broudy was attacked by negroes who stole a car in Los Angeles and drive over an hour to find victims in West Hollywood. The most anger the gay community could manage over that was that the district attorney wasn't able to declare it a hate crime despite the victims being white and gay and the perps being black and heterosexual. As it turns out, the criminals went to prison. But more recently in Washington DC we have the case of a straight black male attacking a gay black male outside a DC gay bar and getting prosecuted for battery despite the victim being dead as a result of the attack. That criminal got six months.
    Then why didn't the Trev Broudy attack result in a hate crimes law? Or the DC attack? You needed a fatality to focus attention, and you got one, and the facts be damned. Got it.

    If you are legitimately ignorant of the body of crime being committed against gay people then you can be forgiven, if however you are being deliberately blind to it then you are complicit.[/QUOTE]
    And what do you call it when you fabricate motives in order to artificially inflate the numbers, as was done in the Shepard case?
    Quote Originally Posted by noonwitch View Post
    There was also a time period in the early 90s when gay men were getting the crap beat out of them in NYC. One of our family's friends was a victim in Central Park. It was in the same time frame as the "wilding" attacks on women in NYC/CP.
    Yes, there was a spike in anti-gay violence, anti-woman violence, anti-semitic attacks (Hell, they had a full-fledged reenactment of Kristalnacht in Crown Heights) in NYC; we call that period of urban violence the Dinkins Administration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Elspeth, I don't actually know what your problem is but you are indeed an idiot if you think that anti-gay violence is "general urban violence". You sound like the bunch who dismiss black on white crime as being generated by poverty, social justice issues, or income disparity. In short, you're like a Duer.
    Hardly. Nobody here is dismissing the attack. What we are doing is questioning the claim that it was the result of anti-gay bias, and that the resulting outraged demands for enhanced legal remedies for bias crimes were the result of a fraud. And the next time that a gay man is killed, the skepticism is going to be much greater because of the last fraudulent claim made by gay activists. You're creating a climate in which you will not be believed, even if you do tell the truth.
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  2. #32  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    The simple truth is that Matthew Shepard wasn't killed because he was gay, his death was a result of intra-gay violence over a bad meth deal. .
    The facts are that which was established at trial. This book isn't a fact simply because it challenges the facts of the trial or because you inexplicably relish it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    My understanding is that this type of crime hasn't abated, either. .
    Based on what?


    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    But, you've tipped your hand again.
    No I haven't, because I'm not being dishonest or concealing information. There is no hand to be tipped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    As you pointed out, there were other crimes against gay men that didn't provoke the kind of response that you needed in order to create the climate to address your issues. You needed a body. It helped if the body was someone photogenic, who could be every mother's son, and who would elicit sympathy, but when the facts undermined the narrative, then the facts had to be suppressed.
    There is nothing unique or remarkable about a sympathetic victim. We see it every day in the murders around the country which get tallied up to "he deserved it" and "They shot a child!". The function of the child being shot is the presumption that a child could not participate in his own murder. Obviously, people like you require that someone be a child or else he was asking for it. Shame on you. Has there been a single allegation that Matthew Shepard did something that night which justified his being beaten to death and left for dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    You needed a body. It helped if the body was someone photogenic, who could be every mother's son, and who would elicit sympathy, but when the facts undermined the narrative, then the facts had to be suppressed.
    If facts were suppressed it was done by the lawyers, not gay Americans who were ignited by the murder. Again, you are starting to sound like the Trayvon Martin crowd claiming that Zimmerman was a racist child molester and that the judge wouldn't allow that in the trial.

    I already pointed out that indeed part of the appeal of Mathew Shepard was that he was pretty (at least in the photo) AND that his killer was WHITE. However, you act like there is a gay star chamber who decides how these things are going to go. To my knowledge this is right up there with "The Gay Agenda", ie the only people who didn't get the memo are gay people themselves.


    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    then the facts had to be suppressed.

    By whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Then why didn't the Trev Broudy attack result in a hate crimes law? Or the DC attack? You needed a fatality to focus attention, and you got one, and the facts be damned. Got it.
    California already had a hate-crimes law. Trev Broudy was not going to be the poster boy for a national hate crimes law because : A - He wasn't killed (just ruined). B- He had recently starred in a movie about seedy porn stars. C- His attackers were black.

    The DC attack I referred to took place after Mathew Shepard but was still missing the elements of popular sympathy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post

    And what do you call it when you fabricate motives in order to artificially inflate the numbers, as was done in the Shepard case?
    Are you accusing the prosecutor of fabricating the case against Aaron McKinney?

    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Yes, there was a spike in anti-gay violence, anti-woman violence, anti-semitic attacks (Hell, they had a full-fledged reenactment of Kristalnacht in Crown Heights) in NYC; we call that period of urban violence the Dinkins Administration.
    I'd probably get banned if I said the same kinds of things about Jews that you say about gay people, but the intent would simply be to slap you in the face with your own ignorance.

    I don't support hate crimes laws, but I will point out that they are never worded to single out one group of "special rights" or protections, or special or more severe punishment for harming a member of a single group.

    The bottom line is that even if the Jimenez book is true, Gay America was operating from the information of the trial. Good faith has a legal definition and meaning even if the concept is foreign to you, Ody.
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  3. #33  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    The facts are that which was established at trial. This book isn't a fact simply because it challenges the facts of the trial or because you inexplicably relish it.
    There are facts which are not entered into evidence at the trial. If you are arguing that the book is false, provide proof to the contrary. If you can't, at least stop impugning the motives of those of us who are appalled that the facts were suppressed in order to advance an agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Based on what?
    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...nship_2012.xls The number of drug-related homicides was 362 last year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    No I haven't, because I'm not being dishonest or concealing information. There is no hand to be tipped.
    Sure you are. You've claimed that Matthew Shepard's murder highlighted the role of religion in violence against gays. However, the perp had no religious affiliation entered into the trial, and both he and Shepard were gay (or at least "bi"), so there was no anti-gay bias to the crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    There is nothing unique or remarkable about a sympathetic victim. We see it every day in the murders around the country which get tallied up to "he deserved it" and "They shot a child!". The function of the child being shot is the presumption that a child could not participate in his own murder. Obviously, people like you require that someone be a child or else he was asking for it. Shame on you. Has there been a single allegation that Matthew Shepard did something that night which justified his being beaten to death and left for dead?
    Aside from the meth dealing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    If facts were suppressed it was done by the lawyers, not gay Americans who were ignited by the murder. Again, you are starting to sound like the Trayvon Martin crowd claiming that Zimmerman was a racist child molester and that the judge wouldn't allow that in the trial.
    No, quite the opposite. It was the media and the gay activists who presented a false narrative of the circumstances of Matthew Shepard's death in order to advance their agenda, just as the media and the racial activists advanced a false narrative in the Zimmerman case. The one who is parroting the false narrative is you, not me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    I already pointed out that indeed part of the appeal of Mathew Shepard was that he was pretty (at least in the photo) AND that his killer was WHITE. However, you act like there is a gay star chamber who decides how these things are going to go. To my knowledge this is right up there with "The Gay Agenda", ie the only people who didn't get the memo are gay people themselves.
    So, there are no gay activist groups; no ACT-UP!, HRC or any other group seeking to advance an agenda? I guess you need to get back on the mailing list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    By whom?
    The media, for starters. After all, there wouldn't have been a hate crimes act named for Shepard if the real circumstances of his death were known, now would there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    California already had a hate-crimes law. Trev Broudy was not going to be the poster boy for a national hate crimes law because : A - He wasn't killed (just ruined). B- He had recently starred in a movie about seedy porn stars. C- His attackers were black.

    The DC attack I referred to took place after Mathew Shepard but was still missing the elements of popular sympathy.
    So, a photogenic face was needed to sell a federal hate crimes law, and if that face wasn't actually attached a hate crime, then the fraud was justified. Got it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Are you accusing the prosecutor of fabricating the case against Aaron McKinney?
    No, and you know that I am not. I am accusing the media and the various activists who agitated for federal hate crimes legislation based on the Shepard murder of fabricating motives that were not proven, or even supported by the evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    I'd probably get banned if I said the same kinds of things about Jews that you say about gay people, but the intent would simply be to slap you in the face with your own ignorance.

    I don't support hate crimes laws, but I will point out that they are never worded to single out one group of "special rights" or protections, or special or more severe punishment for harming a member of a single group.

    The bottom line is that even if the Jimenez book is true, Gay America was operating from the information of the trial. Good faith has a legal definition and meaning even if the concept is foreign to you, Ody.
    Except that if the book is true, Gay America wasn't operating from the information of the trial, they were operating from the activist playbook. From the review:

    On the night in question, McKinney went on a meth-fueled rampage. He pistol-whipped the vulnerable Shepard for drug money, drove into town to rob Shepard’s apartment, and then pistol whipped a stranger who got in his way, fracturing his skull in the process.

    Jacob Marsden of the Caspar Star Tribune would later tell ABC’s 20/20, “I remember one of my fellow reporters saying to me, ‘this kid's gonna be the new poster child for gay rights. Matt Shepard, gay bashed, symbol of the oppression of the gay community.’”

    How right he was. Matthew Shepard died just four weeks before the 1998 mid-term elections. For the next four weeks, much to their own surprise, the killers were presented to America as poster children for the religious right and one more reason not to vote Republican.

    At the time I was doing talk radio in Kansas City on a left-right format. I saw the press releases come in from both LGBT advocates and the Democratic National Committee and was impressed with their coordination and their duplicity.

    With a major assist from the media, the Gay Grievance Industry was manipulating the narrative much the way the Black Grievance Industry would manipulate the Trayvon Martin narrative

    Of course, McKinney and Henderson were not products of Christian culture, but of its antithesis: a crude, soulless, fatherless, sexually libertine, drug-addled, pop culture. Those who controlled the narrative, however, could shape it as they saw fit.
    Matthew Shepard was a useful tool for the left to attack conservatives, Christians, Republicans and anyone else who stood between the left and power. Now that the narrative has proven false, you're doing everything but examining the motives of those who manipulated it for their own gain. Typical.
    --Odysseus
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  4. #34  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Sure you are. You've claimed that Matthew Shepard's murder highlighted the role of religion in violence against gays. However, the perp had no religious affiliation entered into the trial, and both he and Shepard were gay (or at least "bi"), so there was no anti-gay bias to the crime.
    No I didn't. I said, "The reason the right wing is jumping on this is because the religious right steadfastly refuses to acknowledge the role of their religion and churches in the violence against gay people." That role is cultural. It's not necessary that Aaron McKinney belong to a church or have ever attended a church. Kind of like Jews in America who have Christmas decorations, you conform to our culture even if you don't convert to our religion.
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  5. #35  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    No I didn't. I said, "The reason the right wing is jumping on this is because the religious right steadfastly refuses to acknowledge the role of their religion and churches in the violence against gay people." That role is cultural. It's not necessary that Aaron McKinney belong to a church or have ever attended a church. Kind of like Jews in America who have Christmas decorations, you conform to our culture even if you don't convert to our religion.
    So, even if Aaron McKinney wasn't religious, didn't believe in religion, was bisexual and a crystal meth user who murdered Shepard, who he may have previously had sex with) in a drug-induced rage, it's still Christianity's fault that Matthew Shepard was murdered? Seriously?
    --Odysseus
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  6. #36  
    PORCUS MAXIMUS Rockntractor's Avatar
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    Boiled down Nancy Nova is saying that though the facts, places, people and possibly even the planet are incorrect the narrative is still correct. Insert scream here___________
    The difference between pigs and people is that when they tell you you're cured it isn't a good thing.
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  7. #37  
    Senior Member Bailey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    No I didn't. I said, "The reason the right wing is jumping on this is because the religious right steadfastly refuses to acknowledge the role of their religion and churches in the violence against gay people." That role is cultural. It's not necessary that Aaron McKinney belong to a church or have ever attended a church. Kind of like Jews in America who have Christmas decorations, you conform to our culture even if you don't convert to our religion.
    Keep digging that hole twinkle toes, its fun watching you flail about to make a wrong point.
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  8. #38  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    So, even if Aaron McKinney wasn't religious, didn't believe in religion, was bisexual and a crystal meth user who murdered Shepard, who he may have previously had sex with) in a drug-induced rage, it's still Christianity's fault that Matthew Shepard was murdered? Seriously?
    You are truly being dense in this thread. The point of my statement had to do with Elpeth's motives, not McKinney's. She thinks that disproving this one case will somehow undo the reality that is our country's Christian cultural support for violence against gay people. You on the other hand are engaging in a practice identified with your culture, nitpicking to distract from the larger issue.
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  9. #39  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    You are truly being dense in this thread. The point of my statement had to do with Elpeth's motives, not McKinney's. She thinks that disproving this one case will somehow undo the reality that is our country's Christian cultural support for violence against gay people. You on the other hand are engaging in a practice identified with your culture, nitpicking to distract from the larger issue.
    Oh so the ends justify the means?
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  10. #40  
    LTC Member Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    You are truly being dense in this thread. The point of my statement had to do with Elpeth's motives, not McKinney's. She thinks that disproving this one case will somehow undo the reality that is our country's Christian cultural support for violence against gay people. You on the other hand are engaging in a practice identified with your culture, nitpicking to distract from the larger issue.
    The larger issue is that the hate crime was a fraud!!! The subsequent demands for introspection, the manipulation of voters, the various and sundry calls for bias crime laws, were all based on a fraud. The claims of the left that America is a racist, sexist, homophobic nation that can only expunge its guilt through the lavish promotion of the agendas of the left were lies based on fraud. That is the "larger" Goddamned Issue!
    --Odysseus
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