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  1. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    This is why you keep falling for the stuff you get from Lopez and the AFA. They are every bit as devious in their use of language as the gun grabbers are in theirs.
    When you get a study of the same scope as Canada's, let me know.
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  2. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    When you get a study of the same scope as Canada's, let me know.
    My comments are based on the Canadian study you linked.
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  3. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    My comments are based on the Canadian study you linked.

    This is what you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    This is why you keep falling for the stuff you get from Lopez and the AFA. They are every bit as devious in their use of language as the gun grabbers are in theirs.
    These comments are your personal prejudice.

    As far as the comments you made on the study, you gave no links or references as to where you got the information. If you're translating the French, then quote the French, and I can see your translation of it and check it.

    If you are using another source, cite that source.
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  4. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    This is what you said:



    These comments are your personal prejudice. .
    When you or Lopez "summarize" and change the terms, it's not my prejudice it's you being a liar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    As far as the comments you made on the study, you gave no links or references as to where you got the information.
    I told you, it's the study you linked to.

    I don't know what you think any of this proves or what you see as your objective. Only you and your ilk pay any attention to the output of hate groups like the AFA and tools like Lopez. The rest of us have grown weary of this after you rehashed Paul Cameron's discredited bullshit ten times over.
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  5. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Fixed. Are you serious? WTF is "gender chaos" and why would gay people want it?
    One of the annoying things about arguing with you is that every time we revisit a subject, you feign ignorance and I have to start from scratch. Gender chaos is the constant erosion of societal sexual norms. We see it in the various attempts to redefine gender as a "social construct," rather than a fact of biology. As for why gay people would want it, you'd know better than I would, but obviously, anything that undermines what gay activists refer to has the heteronormativity of the culture advances those who wish to indulge alternative sexual activities. This is one of the fundamental functions of queer theory, which attempts to sow confusion and eliminate distinctions in gender.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    I can't imagine where you are getting this bullshit analysis of yours. AIDS was a setback, not a catalyst. AIDS wiped out all of the bank accounts. AIDS took away the working political power structure of gay businessmen and handed it over to lesbian cooperatives and socialist group leadership which practically stalled the gay rights movement overnight.
    Right. It empowered the current gay power structure and radicalized it. For them, AIDS made it possible to go on the offensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    Randy Shilts was an author, period. He's one of those people who moved to San Francisco from the Midwest and imagined that it is the center of the universe. San Francisco was not and is not the gay world. For many it was and is like some kind of residential amusement park and yes, lots of gay men move there to do little more than keep a roof over their heads while being promiscuous. If you will look around San Francisco, you will see that the sex entertainment culture is hardly limited to gay men. It's a port, and home to strippers, and hookers, and loose women slinging cocktails to sailors. Having grown up in DC, I found SF to be quite seedy when I arrived in 1980. Like most people from the Eastern Seaboard, my unwillingness to accept that SF was the best place on earth was something of a social barrier with people like Shilts who understandably found it preferable to Iowa.
    Shilts may or may not have decided that SF was the center of the gay world (in fact, he identified three major cities in the US that were epicenters of gay activity, with NYC certainly being one of the others), but his observations of the behavior of gay men are no less valid because . Having been in NYC during the period under discussion, I can tell you that the same dynamics were at work there. Gay men became radicalized by AIDS and treated attempts to restrict the transmission of the disease as a personal affront. When Rudy Giuliani attempted to shut down the bathhouses, he was roundly denounced as a bigot and homophobe. When he was told that the proprietors of gay bars couldn't police the bathrooms because the stalls blocked visibility, he attempted to have the stall doors removed, which further outraged the gay community. NY State had a policy of 100% HIV testing of newborns, but was barred by state law from informing mothers if their infants were born HIV+, because gay activists considered this a breach of privacy. NY couldn't change the law until 2000, more than two decades after the disease began racking up a body count. Political Correctness made any attempts to modify behavior in the face of AIDS impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    AIDS was responsible for Act-Up. It would be really difficult to maintain that Act-Up has been beneficial to the gay community. A more obnoxious group of people is hard to imagine (except for the screaming bitch who seems to be at every immigration rally intent on getting compliance by the piercing quality of her voice yelling in hispanish). Even gay people got enough of Act-Up.
    It would be very hard to imagine that Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson has been beneficial to the black community, and yet they are treated as leaders of that community. The point is that the activists were empowered by the crisis, and they used it to take control of a significant segment of their community. BTW, exactly what do you find objectionable about ACT-UP? The protests in churches? The militancy? Because except for a few cosmetic differences, they don't look very different from the gay activists who opposed Prop 8 in California.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    So be honest with me: Where are you getting all this bullshit?
    I've been honest with you. I cited links and identified sources whenever possible. It's you who routinely spouts unattributed statements and your own opinions as facts and then gets upset when you're refuted. Be honest with yourself, for a change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    I was surprised that white people would go to the health department or any public health facility. No gay man in DC would have ever gone to the Health Department. I went there to get a Hepatitis vaccination and I assure you that it wasn't sexy or romantic. After that, I spent the big bucks for a Sutter Street doctor.

    I do think you are ignoring the context. Disco was a sexually lawless time for gay and straight.
    DC wasn't San Francisco or the Village in NYC. The disco era was sexually lawless, but gay men were far more promiscuous than straight men, for the simple reason that straight women didn't put out as much as men wanted them to. With other men, that wouldn't have been an issue. Regardless, Shilts cited a host of statistics about VD rates in the gay communities in SF and NY. You ignored them in order to attack his character and observations, but the numbers don't lie. When 3-5% of the population accounts for 80% of the VD cases in a given community, you can't make the claim that it's as much a straight issue as a gay one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
    This is what you said:



    These comments are your personal prejudice.

    As far as the comments you made on the study, you gave no links or references as to where you got the information. If you're translating the French, then quote the French, and I can see your translation of it and check it.

    If you are using another source, cite that source.
    Nova rarely cites sources, he spends most of his time attacking those that don't meet his standards for veracity, which basically means anyone who disagrees with him.
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  6. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    .... the numbers don't lie. When 3-5% of the population accounts for 80% of the VD cases in a given community, you can't make the claim that it's as much a straight issue as a gay one.
    And there you go; changing the terms of what you have yourself posted. You are taking the claim made for the SF VD clinic and applying it to the national gay population, or world population. It doesn't work that way. Moreover, that statistic doesn't really tell you anything of value even about the SF gay population because there is no statistic for frequent fliers or unique users.

    And I'm still at a loss as to what exactly your point is? What is your point?



    PS- The one time I went to the clinic in SF no one asked me if I was gay. So I don't really know how Shilts would be able to make the claim "Gay men made up about 80% of the 70,000 annual patient visits to [San Francisco’s] VD clinics." Normally I pick up on imprecise terms, and only now did the word "about" jump out at me. Why exactly would Shilts say "about" if he knew the percentage and why would the number be so round as 70,000? These are the things to look out for in any claim of imparting facts.
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  7. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Gender chaos is the constant erosion of societal sexual norms.
    Gender norms aren't about sex. Heterosexual male transvestites break gender norms but are still heterosexual. I don't understand the thrill of it, but then I don't have to.
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  8. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    .... but his observations of the behavior of gay men are no less valid because .
    And yet you dismiss my knowledge and observations even though Randy Shilts moved to SF a year after I did and died 19 years ago.
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  9. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odysseus View Post
    Nova rarely cites sources, he spends most of his time attacking those that don't meet his standards for veracity, which basically means anyone who disagrees with him.
    When I do cite sources you simply dismiss them, despite the fact that none of them are dedicated to the topic like your religious hate group sites are about gay bashing.

    The funny thing is, that absolutely none of the junk that Elspeth brings over here or that you parrot proves anything of value. It's really a wonder why you do it. If you simply like arguing, well I can understand that. Let's talk about economic refugees from Eastern Europe who came to the US and have the Left convinced they were persecuted.
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  10. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novaheart View Post
    When you or Lopez "summarize" and change the terms, it's not my prejudice it's you being a liar.



    I told you, it's the study you linked to.

    I don't know what you think any of this proves or what you see as your objective. Only you and your ilk pay any attention to the output of hate groups like the AFA and tools like Lopez. The rest of us have grown weary of this after you rehashed Paul Cameron's discredited bullshit ten times over.
    Translated...I can't so I'm just gonna spin and deflect.
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