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  1. #11  
    Senior Member 98ZJUSMC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    Yes, and over at Discussionist, it's "remember when Southern Baptists were pro-Choice?"

    This is why I stick to my point that these people are simply certifiable. Whatever in the past has not been revised to match the narrative, will soon be revised. The "rise of the religious Right".

    What a pantload. Reality is that the Left created the "religious Right", perhaps the most abused strawman in history.

    When Roe was first decided, most of the Southern evangelicals who today make up the backbone of the anti-abortion movement
    .....are probably dead, moron.

    believed that abortion was a deeply personal issue in which government shouldn’t play a role. Some were hesitant to take a position on abortion because they saw it as a “Catholic issue,” and worried about the influence of Catholic teachings on American religious observance.
    Oh, please..........
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  2. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by 98ZJUSMC View Post
    Yes, and over at Discussionist, it's "remember when Southern Baptists were pro-Choice?"

    This is why I stick to my point that these people are simply certifiable. Whatever in the past has not been revised to match the narrative, will soon be revised. The "rise of the religious Right".

    What a pantload. Reality is that the Left created the "religious Right", perhaps the most abused strawman in history.



    .....are probably dead, moron.



    Oh, please..........
    Speaking only personally, back 1970ish I didn't know where I stood on abortion. Keep in mind I was only 16YO then. So on one hand, based on who was speaking out, it did seem to me to possibly be a "Catholic issue" (I was raised in the Lutheran church). OTOH even then, when I was but half-cooked (if that!), I recognized that, regardless of who the protagonists were, it was a moral issue that transcended churchianity. Consequently, I started thinking through the issue over the next few years. I would add, as at least semi-relevant, that the Evangelical-charismatic Christian bookstore at which I worked in the mid-70s leaned basically Pro-Life. IOW, Evangelicals were already thinking through the issue on its merits and looking to Scripture, not a a pretext to somehow keep schools segregated (In the mid-70s I lived in the Phoenix, AZ area, and its schools were not segregated, and may never have been). This was years before the "religious right" became a force in US politics; it was slightly before Evangelicals recognized that the D Party was the Abortion Party and the party of many other things contrary to Scriptural teachings. As was previously pointed out (IIRC), many Evangelicals voted for Jimmy Carter, thinking he was "one of us" (I didn't vote in 1976, because I knew I didn't know enough to vote intelligently, and I did not want to vote for "one of us" while not knowing what Carter - or Ford - stood for).

    As I've said before, in part, the OP article is so vastly over-simplified and generalized that ii is false and useless as a basis for understanding how Evangelicals' political thinking developed in the 1970s and 1980s. On the side, a religion will (or at least should) affect how a person lives his/her life and what they believe makes for a healthy society and nation. It is at that point that religion and politics all but inevitably intersect and become coherent.
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  3. #13  
    I'm hyper. Lanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 98ZJUSMC View Post
    Yes, and over at Discussionist, it's "remember when Southern Baptists were pro-Choice?"

    This is why I stick to my point that these people are simply certifiable. Whatever in the past has not been revised to match the narrative, will soon be revised. The "rise of the religious Right".

    What a pantload. Reality is that the Left created the "religious Right", perhaps the most abused strawman in history.



    .....are probably dead, moron.



    Oh, please..........
    It's ridiculous. People weren't *that* anti-Catholic.

    The discussionist thread is talking about Southern Baptists. I was never that, but the first church I ever attended was Baptist and I think they're close enough. They didn't talk politics, but I knew some of the more conservative values were at the core of their ideas. There was no "Because the religious right said so." It was because God said so, the God who never changes. You're not going to convince me that the Religious Right started that crap or anti-Catholic fears.
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  4. #14  
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    While typing my post above I got curious as to the details of the position regarding abortion of the church denomination in which I was raised, the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. The LCMS is theologically conservative, and is officially Pro-Life. I knew this already (I've not been a member of an LCMS congregation for many years, but that's another, not very interesting, story), but was wondering when the LCMS took that Pro-Life stance. Nosing around their website, I found that the resolution stating their position was passed at a convention in 1979. Organizational bureaucracy being what it is, and the synod holding its national conventions every 3 years, this resolution was almost certainly in the consideration and writing process for two or more years.
    SVPete

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  5. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    It's ridiculous. People weren't *that* anti-Catholic.

    The discussionist thread is talking about Southern Baptists. I was never that, but the first church I ever attended was Baptist and I think they're close enough. They didn't talk politics, but I knew some of the more conservative values were at the core of their ideas. There was no "Because the religious right said so." It was because God said so, the God who never changes. You're not going to convince me that the Religious Right started that crap or anti-Catholic fears.
    I have to quibble your second sentence some. There are some on the edge or even fringe among Fundamentalists (real ones, not Christians-I-disagree-with MSM "Fundamentalists"). Jack T. Chick comes quickly to mind, and he isn't alone. These are the sort of folks who literally claim that Billy Graham is a witting tool of Satan. I wish I were joking or exaggerating.

    But the core of what you said, "... I knew some of the more conservative values were at the core of their ideas. There was no "Because the religious right said so." It was because God said so, the God who never changes,", is true of the discussions and thought processes of the time.

    Evangelicals and Fundamentalists really do believe that Scripture is Divinely inspired, is authoritative, and applies today in daily life. That was the foundation on which such discussions were based. Sometimes I think some political liberals and conservatives are so accustomed to following a shifting party line - not really believing strongly in ideas - that they really cannot conceive of people truly believing something and basing their lives and actions on those beliefs.
    SVPete

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  6. #16  
    Senior Member 98ZJUSMC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    It's ridiculous. People weren't *that* anti-Catholic.
    I don't remember it, ever, either and I am RC (Chicago Area). If my knowledge of history is correct, that was an East Coast thing and very LIbEral.

    The discussionist thread is talking about Southern Baptists. I was never that, but the first church I ever attended was Baptist and I think they're close enough. They didn't talk politics, but I knew some of the more conservative values were at the core of their ideas.
    See, I live much further South now than my youth and that's exactly right. Politics were never brought up either North or down here. Our first parish was VERY conservative. The second was a bit more LIbEral, but still, politics was discussed at home, not at church.

    There was no "Because the religious right said so." It was because God said so, the God who never changes. You're not going to convince me that the Religious Right started that crap or anti-Catholic fears.
    Me either. It's a creation of the Left.
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  7. #17  
    Senior Member 98ZJUSMC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SVPete View Post
    the resolution stating their position was passed at a convention in 1979. Organizational bureaucracy being what it is, and the synod holding its national conventions every 3 years, this resolution was almost certainly in the consideration and writing process for two or more years.
    Which would coincide with the beginnings of the Left's "Rise of the Religious Right". Constructed for that very purpose and then infiltrated in the media.

    Like you, I had absolutely no stance at all on abortion, until probably my early 20's.
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  8. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    ... the first church I ever attended was Baptist and I think they're close enough. They didn't talk politics, but I knew some of the more conservative values were at the core of their ideas.
    Quote Originally Posted by 98ZJUSMC View Post
    See, I live much further South now than my youth and that's exactly right. Politics were never brought up either North or down here. Our first parish was VERY conservative. The second was a bit more LIbEral, but still, politics was discussed at home, not at church.
    I missed these very interesting comments in Lanie's post. It's somewhat of a chicken-egg conundrum thingy, but for the most part I think a lot of what is now considered conservative in Evangelicals' views stems, consciously and unconsciously, from their/our (I've been attending Evangelical churches for some 4 decades, and believe Missouri Synod Lutherans could properly be considered "Evangelical", which would mean I've been among Evangelicals for nearly 6 decades) understanding of Scripture. That said, discussions of politics as such is pretty uncommon in Evangelical gatherings (e.g. church services and fellowship after, Sunday School classes, home group meetings). Specific issues sometimes come up (it's pretty hard to avoid issues like homosexuality, sex outside of marriage, and divorce when preaching through 1 Corinthians 5-7 or Romans 1!). It's usually person-to-person or in issue-focused groups such as Survivors. IOW, one could attend a Southern (or Conservative or Regular or General Conference) Baptist or AG or charismatic church for a year or two without a political issue or candidate being mentioned in a gathering, yet understand, as Lanie pointed out, that there is a general sub-culture that would currently be called "conservative".

    Quote Originally Posted by 98ZJUSMC View Post
    Which would coincide with the beginnings of the Left's "Rise of the Religious Right". Constructed for that very purpose and then infiltrated in the media.

    Like you, I had absolutely no stance at all on abortion, until probably my early 20's.
    Well there was a sort of movement that became worthy of noticing some time in the late 70s and early 80s. But it was basically grass roots, slowly developing as people became aware of concerns rather than something pre-planned and imposed from above (not without influential leaders, just not some sort of conspiracy). And while abortion was a significant issue, it was one of several. For example, anyone remember Anita Bryant? Or in another direction, the mid-70s onward saw large movements among churches and parents of school-aged children toward private campus-based schools and homeschooling. They/we were not concerned with racial/ethnic stuff (the stupid stereotype promulgated and believed by Libs/Progs), but on academic quality (the initial reason our family homeschooled!), moral atmosphere, and physical safety (i.e. stuff like drugs & bullying) (I shouldn't need to say this, but anyone who actually looked in on private school classrooms, homeschool park day groups and homeschool convention exhibit halls would see why I say the racial/ethnic avoidance narrative is stupid). As to religious groups involved, the "Religious Right" was not entirely Evangelicals, and probably not even primarily (the idea behind the name chosen by/for Jerry Falwell's group, The Moral Majority was not a prideful proclamation of their morality, but to make the point that the people who took moral issues seriously transcended Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, including many Catholics, Jews, other religious groups, and even some atheists).

    The phenomenon of the "Religious Right" was far more complex than the simplistic, silly and false narrative in the OP article. Agenda-driven and lazy people don't want to recognize that sort of complexity.
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  9. #19  
    Senior Member 98ZJUSMC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SVPete View Post
    For example, anyone remember Anita Bryant?
    Heh! I had, pretty much, forgotten about her. Now that you jogged my memory, her whole spiel seemed to coincide with the "rise of the Religious Right" media blare.

    The Moral Majority was not a prideful proclamation of their morality, but to make the point that the people who took moral issues seriously transcended Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, including many Catholics, Jews, other religious groups, and even some atheists).
    Agreed. Good point. And, exactly right, even some atheists.

    Whatever was "proclaimed", was a creation of the media.
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  10. #20  
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    Everyone...and by that I mean Libtards...seem to forget that this vast eeeeevil "religious right" actually first rose up and helped Jimmy Carter...a born again Christian son of the Deep South...win the election in 1976. It wasn't until he turned out to be such a disaster that a lot of what is now known as the "religious right" got behind Republicans.
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