More Hating on Christianity

[LogansPapa]

We are not at war with every Muslim, and we never have been.

And here you are with yet another lie saying we are.

You are pathetic.

And you are a phoney. If you had the power to end all of their lives in the next heart-beat are you saying you wouldn’t use it - for no more than a simple-minded revenge? Bullshit.

[IanMartins]

Let me guess, you're an AGW alarmist as well.

Just as I do not believe that individuals are obligated to sacrifice themselves to the greater good in the name of a god, I do not believe that they are obligated to do the same in the name of the environment. There is no climate crisis -- only leftist propaganda. There is certainly heavy pollution in some areas, but the only reasonable way to deal with that is through scientific breakthroughs in alternate energy sources -- not through using special lightbulbs. Scientific breakthroughs are accellerated through capitalism.

You really dont like people publically talking about faith, do you?

I don't. I tend to ignore it, but since this is a thread about atheism/religion, I'm vocal about it here.

This meme about needing proof again. Why do you need proof? As I seem to recall..a very wise man once said that "science and faith are like the shoes on your feet...you get further with both than you do with just one."

I would rather say that science and philosophy are like the shoes on your feet. Philosophy is a product of man's ability to think, while religion is a product of the opposite.

Ask all you like, I am not required to justify myself to you.

You're not. As long as someone attempts to present their religion as truth however, I will inquire about what evidence they base their view on. Let's end this particular part of the debate -- you say you're not interested in preaching to me, and I say I'm not interested in listening unless you present me with evidence. Its a win-win situation.

Um...oh yeah..what church would that be?

The Bible says that the Church is infallible because of the Holy Spirit. This was believed to be in reference to the Catholic Church. After the Reformation, the Protestants argued that the Church mentioned in the Bible is a spiritual/abstract one that all who have faith belong to. If you don't belong to an actual church, I believe you are still part of one, according to Christianity. Replace "anyone outside your church" to "anyone not Christian", if you will.

I said that confronted with the proof you would still not believe. i stand by that assessment.

If I knew for a fact that there was a God, I would live out my life as an obedient and faithful follower -- assuming the God was a just one. I'm strongly concerned with morality, but find my morality in the field of philosophy and common sense rather than in religion.

What "brand" would that be?

I don't know which brand you subscribe to. Either baptism, lutheranism, catholicism, episcopalianism, presbyterianism, mormonism or quakerism, I would believe. There's so many its hard to keep track.

Frank Herbert from his book "The Dragon in the Sea".."A psychologist that has never read and understood the Bible is a workman without tools..and blind, top boot."

I'll counter that with a quote from Ayn Rand, the philosopher behind Objectivism:

Philosophy is the goal toward which religion was only a helplessly blind groping. The grandeur, the reverence, the exalted purity, the austere dedication to the pursuit of truth, which are commonly associated with religion, should properly belong to the field of philosophy

In order to reach your fullest potential, you need to have a firm sense of reality. This means a deep respect for facts. What is, is. Things are what they are. Truth is not obliterated by the refusal to see it. Facts are not annihilated by the pretense that they do not exist. Without rational though, you are truly a workman without tools. Having blind faith in religion means faking reality -- its an irrational shortcut to knowledge, and nothing but a placebo for the mind.

[FlaGator]

<snip>
I would rather say that science and philosophy are like the shoes on your feet. Philosophy is a product of man's ability to think, while religion is a product of the opposite.

I would beg to differ with that. Many of the greatest philosophers of the last 2000 years have been Christian or held Christian beliefs. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas where deep thinkers as were Luther and Calvin. If you do a little historical research you will find that philosophy and religion were closely related until around the 17th century when naturalism started to become popular and divided the two. Augustine was trained in Aristotelian philosophy by some of the best minds of his time. Immanuel Kant had a strong belief in God and used philosophy and reason to deduce the existence of God. C.S. Lewis is probably one of the best of the modern philosophers who happened to use his huge mental facilities on the Christian/Theist worldview. I would hardly call Martin Luther King a person who lacked the ability for intelligent thought. Also, take a good long look at the pre-Christian era philosophers and you'll find that most had a positive out look on the existence of a god or gods.

You seem to imply that because a capable philosopher points his perception at religion and uses reason and logic to validate his or her beliefs then they are less intelligent than a strictly secular philosopher. For over a thousand years theology was considered the queen of sciences. The era of enlightenment was ushered in by theist scientists attempting to prove the existence of God. Francis S. Collins, the head of the National Human Genome Research Institute, after researching DNA became convinced that DNA was the product not of evolution but of divine design. Would you consider him as someone who is lacks critical thinking skills?

[The Night Owl]

I would beg to differ with that. Many of the greatest philosophers of the last 2000 years have been Christian or held Christian beliefs. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas where deep thinkers as were Luther and Calvin. If you do a little historical research you will find that philosophy and religion were closely related until around the 17th century when naturalism started to become popular and divided the two. Augustine was trained in Aristotelian philosophy by some of the best minds of his time. Immanuel Kant had a strong belief in God and used philosophy and reason to deduce the existence of God. C.S. Lewis is probably one of the best of the modern philosophers who happened to use his huge mental facilities on the Christian/Theist worldview. I would hardly call Martin Luther King a person who lacked the ability for intelligent thought. Also, take a good long look at the pre-Christian era philosophers and you'll find that most had a positive out look on the existence of a god or gods.

You seem to imply that because a capable philosopher points his perception at religion and uses reason and logic to validate his or her beliefs then they are less intelligent than a strictly secular philosopher. For over a thousand years theology was considered the queen of sciences. The era of enlightenment was ushered in by theist scientists attempting to prove the existence of God. Francis S. Collins, the head of the National Human Genome Research Institute, after researching DNA became convinced that DNA was the product not of evolution but of divine design. Would you consider him as someone who is lacks critical thinking skills?

A good post. I certainly don't think that people of faith lack critical thinking skills but the fact that many highly rational people have faith does not mean that having faith is rational.

No human is completely rational. Our brains just don't give us the ability to be completely rational. Consider the fear of flying. Even though people who have a fear of flying know that the fear is irrational, most who have it are unable to shake it completely.

[FlaGator]

A good post. I certainly don't think that people of faith lack critical thinking skills but the fact that many highly rational people have faith does not mean that having faith is rational.

No human is completely rational. Our brains just don't give us the ability to be completely rational. Consider the fear of flying. Even though people who have a fear of flying know that the fear is irrational, most who have it are unable to shake it completely.

Thank you for the compliment. I didn't think that you were questioning the thinking skills of Christians. That post was answering IanMartins comments. I like to consider myself fairly intelligent and since I became a believer I have found no evidence to dispute my faith. I converted to Christianity 2 years ago. Before that I professed to be a Taoist. Since God opened my eyes, I've read quite a bit concerning the history of Christianity and a lot of the Christian philosophers and ministers. Right now I'm reading a lot of C. H. Spurgeon and Jonathan Edwards and really enjoy their views and writings. God did not make Christians to be ignorant people. He called us to faith so that we could glorify Him and one of the best ways to glorify God is to speak intelligently concerning His character, His will and His gift of salvation. When I became a Christian the first thing I wanted to know was what God expected of me so I read the Bible and when Christ spoke of the things one has to do to demostrate his or her love of God I know that that is how I had to live my life. I take that whole love your neighbors and pray for your enemies stuff to heart. God tells me to be truthful and not argumentative so that is what I strive to be. He tells me that I am to help an enemy as quickly as I help a friend. That I have found is a very good teaching because when you help an enemy you both tend to discover that you have more things in common than you have things separating you. God loves me so I should love you in gratitude to God. When you wrong me I should forgive you because I have wronged God and he forgives me. Christianity is really simple once you can see it. It's hard to live but it's not that hard to understand what God expects of a person.

[BSR]

And you are a phoney. If you had the power to end all of their lives in the next heart-beat are you saying you wouldn’t use it - for no more than a simple-minded revenge? Bullshit.

you honestly believe all christians want to kill all muslims?

[LogansPapa]

you honestly believe all christians want to kill all muslims?

As with the padres of the missions in early California, I believe that most devout Christians would do almost anything to convert them, or lacking that - have them put to the sword to ‘save their poor souls from eternal damnation.’

[BSR]

As with the padres of the missions in early California, I believe that most devout Christians would do almost anything to convert them, or lacking that - have them put to the sword to ‘save their poor souls from eternal damnation.’

That's sad. Im sorry you are so misguided. Maybe you should actually attend a local Christian church some time.

[InspiredHome]

It's not our duty to convert. Just to spread the gospel. A forced conversion is no true conversion. It's the Holy Spirit that regenerates the heart.

[LogansPapa]

That's sad. Im sorry you are so misguided. Maybe you should actually attend a local Christian church some time.

It's sad - for sure.

But that doesn’t erase history and all the fine "traditions" held therein.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade